04-10-2001 16:15									#1
	Is great influence on human history required... Inflate your Upload Space

... from a civilization to be presented in the game? Those who think so, give me a show of hands, and those who don't: likewise

IMO: Not in any way. If a civ is interesting, it can be taken to a game. And thus every civ in the world (past or present) qualify...

	04-10-2001 16:58									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Only thing required for admission in my opinion is that the Civ makes the game interesting. I'm happy with the mix selected by Firaxis - they will make for interesting gaming.

	04-10-2001 17:03									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'd say so, otherwise they are just stuffing.
I would go even further and say that a great influence on the progress of human civilization is required. If it's just plundering and killing that they did, no matter on what scale, I would consider them Barbarians.

By the way: excellent idea for a poll!

	05-10-2001 02:48									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

wheres the -other- option and the in between option?

	05-10-2001 02:56									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I would say NO,just because I don't know how you define great influence.
Hitler had a great influence on history,but when asked most ppl want him out of the list of the 100 most important ppl of the century.(And what about the history you don't know.)

Shade

	05-10-2001 03:00									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Shade - those people are ignorant. History is written by the victors, sure, but even the losers have changed history in substantial ways. Hitler was an undeniably huge influence on history. Just because he was pure evil doesn't mean he didn't influence history.

I put yet because I lean more towards yes than no. There also has to be a balance on the world map, IMO, even if not all games are world map games.

	05-10-2001 03:06									#7
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Shade - those people are ignorant.

they make out the major part of humanity,stupidity and ignorance is an easy way of life,you don't have to think for yourself.(look at what happened the hours after WTC)

Shade

	05-10-2001 03:14									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I hear ya man

	05-10-2001 04:21									#9
	Suffering from ads?

"Significant influence" can mean, 'They did stuff I care about.' From the point of view of their citizens or their descendants, they are all significant. I think it is interesting that no one ever advocates adding Hatta (the Hittites), or the Georgians (of the Caucacus), or Mali, all of which were quite influential in their turn, but don't seem to have much in the way of modern, game-playing people who think of these civs as theirs.

	05-10-2001 07:04									#10
	Put an end to popups!

NO

Because as was mentioned before: How do you define a 'great' civ? And even then, the victors are the ones doing the defining.

	06-10-2001 02:40									#11
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by orange Just because he was pure evil doesn't mean he didn't influence history.

Leave the word evil for the curch.

	06-10-2001 03:02									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Knott: No. It is leaving the word "evil" to the church that is the greatest error of philosophy. It is by that means that we surrender morality to superstitious and dishonest men.

As to the topic of the thread, I voted no, mainly because it is clear that "influence" isn't the primary criterion of the devs. I would think that there is one major criterion:

Can the avarage fourth grader recognize their name?

Like Hollywood, game makers primary goal, besides making a product they can enjoy themselves, is to make a profit. Who cares what the Ottoman Turks accomplished? Who ever heard of them?

Yes, the answer to both questions is me. But I'm majoring in history!

	06-10-2001 03:27									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Who cares what the Ottoman Turks accomplished? Who ever heard of them?

1)Not really,but it's just interesting to know such stuff.

2)I did.btw are there ppl who don't??? Q:are there still countries where history isn't a course you have to do at school??

Shade

	06-10-2001 05:51									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

shade- because he's from California

hey, I advocated Mali,Ghana and the Turks!

I voted yes because, why should we be forced to play with useless civilizations? (Yes, all civs did something, but in ranking the most important, there are clearly 30 civilizations that consistently emerge... one of the reasons many people list European civs as the most important is that they conquered most of the world and influenced through their colonizing- and brought many civilizations onto the world scene.)

(in ancient history however... )

	06-10-2001 06:03									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Right now split 50%-50%, 12-12

I voted "yes." I heard a common complaint about CTP was that you would often have a game filled with non-important civs like the Canadians, Jamaicans, etc. who never really had a great influence on human history. It doesn't matter whether the civ "accomplished" much or not, i.e. even if you didn't do much to advance human progress but you made a great influence on human history (i.e. Mongols), you still deserve to be in the game.

Of course, I have to mark this post with a big IMHO, although I sincerely doubt anyone cares about some Civ-addicted teenager's HO.

	06-10-2001 06:43									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I voted "yes." By this standard, the Iroquois and Zulus are pretty much right out, Americans and Aztecs are damned close to it.

The fact that the Iroquois got in while the Spanish, Phoenicians, Arabs, etc. got left out is just a tad unexplainable. When I get around to downloading user-made civs, the Iroquois will be the first to go.

	06-10-2001 08:43									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov I voted "yes." By this standard, the Iroquois and Zulus are pretty much right out, Americans and Aztecs are damned close to it. The fact that the Iroquois got in while the Spanish, Phoenicians, Arabs, etc. got left out is just a tad unexplainable. When I get around to downloading user-made civs, the Iroquois will be the first to go.

The thing is that these are civilizations, different than cultures, and bigger than any nation-state or ethnicity. The Arabs are really well covered already if you give it even a moment's thought - Persia, Babylon and Egypt are all where present day Arabs reside. But if you didn't have the Iroquois you'd have just the Americans and the Aztecs will be the only civs in the Americas.

	06-10-2001 16:03									#18
	Maybe slightly off-topic Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

With all the warmongers walking around here,I wonder why no one ever suggested to put in "Belgium"(I know it doesn't even exists 200 years yet).Why I here you ask:half the European wars since the roman empire have been fought out here.(and that while we tried to stay neutral)

Shade

	06-10-2001 22:12									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i didn't vote bcos ur poll is not very well designed. u r forcing ppl to choose either way: significant influence means everything or nothing at all.

Whereas i believe that significant influence does affect the probability that the civ should be included in the game but that is not all. Most ppl forget one thing that goes b4 this: wat defines a civ as one civ? The Australians and New Zealanders independently certainly had more significant influence than the Zulus. People in London and people in Liverpool indepently would have more influence than the Zulus. The Zulus are included and not them bcos of its UNIQUENESS.

But then again mere uniqueness (like the Eskimos or Australian Aborigines) doesn't pass the test if they r too insignificant.

My criteria for accepting a civ is weighing up both its uniquesness and significance.

	07-10-2001 10:48									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I voted no. Yet I think a civ must fulfill the requirements of "Civilization", i.e. they should be urban and state-building.
Uniqueness is a very important factor to me.

	08-10-2001 10:58									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well...
I tried to make a simple poll: YES or NO.
I thought that if I give only two choises, people could make a desicion. But I was wrong. Could someone make a poll that would fill the needs for those who aren't happy with this poll?

	08-10-2001 16:12									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

essentially, the way u phrased the question naturally leads to a yes or no. How i would phrase the question would be something like: how important is great influence in history to u for a civ to be included in the game?
a) great influence in history SOLEY determines whether a civ is to be in
b)g i i h is one of the important factors
c)g i i h is a minor factor
d)g i i h does not matter AT ALL.

but making a second poll would be quite boring, would it?

	09-10-2001 14:38									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I voted no. The best in this game is the possibility of Iroquois inventing space flight.

	09-10-2001 16:11									#24
	Re: Maybe slightly off-topic Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by shade With all the warmongers walking around here,I wonder why no one ever suggested to put in "Belgium"(I know it doesn't even exists 200 years yet).Why I here you ask:half the European wars since the roman empire have been fought out here.(and that while we tried to stay neutral) Shade

And there's more: of all peoples of Gaul, the Belgians are the bravest (Julius Caesar)

	09-10-2001 17:06									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: And there's more: of all peoples of Gaul, the Belgians are the bravest (Julius Caesar)

="... de hi omnes fortissimi sunt Belgae."
(this was only because the merchants couldn't get luxuries and wine here,which would have effiminated the spirits(Caesars opinion))

Shade

	09-10-2001 17:44									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Staszek I voted no. The best in this game is the possibility of Iroquois inventing space flight.

This is taken from the Herelad & Review of July 29, 1999

quote: Learning a blast at space camp As mission control monitored the flight, 13-year-old Cmdr. Tyler Harrison safely guided his shuttle to a landing Wednesday afternoon. Tyler; of Chenoa, who will be an eighth-grader this fall, commanded his first shuttle mission in a simulator on the Shilling Building stage at Millikin University. He is one of 19 young people participating this week in Space Extravaganza, a four-day camp. "This week has been a lot of fun," Tyler said. "Today, I had to prepare for launch, keep everybody together and fix problems. We had a hatch malfunction, and we had to make a new latch with parts lying around." The 10-person team used a 17-page script from a previous live shuttle mission to simulate the flight from takeoff to docking with an international space station to landing. Stretched across the stage was a 7-foot high, 52-foot long plastic replica of the shuttle docked with the space station. Inside were six young men, each responsible for certain tasks during the course of the mission. The ship was equipped with computer monitors connected to mission control- where four other young people manned tow more computer terminals. Gregg Murphy and Sheila Brown, directors of the camp, are teachers at Iroquois West Middle School in Gilman.

There is still hope!

LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

	09-10-2001 19:46									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah This is taken from the Herelad & Review of July 29, 1999 There is still hope! LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!!

and ... LOL?

	11-10-2001 19:00									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

For those who voted no, I have a question.

Would you really want to play the game if there were only 16 obscure tribes that you never heard of?

I don't think i would.

	12-10-2001 07:52									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Ribannah- the Iroquois are part of AMERICA now- or at least they should be- why should anyone go away from a country- I never understood the Soviet Union's break up- and I did read a long history on why the Ukrainians became a country- in the history it declared that the Ukrainians really didn't have a good reason for breaking away.

Why not come together and unite like in the EU?

	12-10-2001 09:31									#30
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud I never understood the Soviet Union's break up- and I did read a long history on why the Ukrainians became a country- in the history it declared that the Ukrainians really didn't have a good reason for breaking away.

It was this thing called Communist Dicatorship that a whole lot of those "Soviet" :cough:RUSSIAN:cough: held nations didn't like. Ukraine prospers now as an independent nation. Russia suffers

A forced union of states is different from a cooperative union of states.