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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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Ribannah - I was willing to cut you some slack before, obviously you seem to like the Iroquois and like the fact that they are in Civ III, which is fine - you are entitled to your opinion...
However, what you have provided with in your posts in this thread in particular is absolutely idiotic ****.
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Ehhm, because they weren't Iroquois? (While the Cherokee, on the other hand, could be considered as part of the 'greater Iroquois tribe', as they are closely related to the six nations.) |
The Cherokee were not Iroquois, the Mohawk were not Iroquois, the Sioux were not Iroquois. This quote simply shows how completely moronic your logic is.
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The main reason Firaxis hasn't even considered the Incas is that because a certain someone got his wish and we aren't allowed to build cities on mountains in civ3!! |
The Inca are not absent from the game for either of the reasons you gave, not because they are not the Iroquois, not because cities on mountains are not allowed.
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Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working, Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Construction, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Chivalry, Engineering, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, Navigation, The Republic, Chemistry, Leadership, Invention, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Theology, Metallurgy, Communism, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism |
As stated before by Ironwood, this is unquestionably laughable, and not justifiable by any stretch of the normal historian's imagination.
Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working...yes
Masonry no
Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics - yes (some more of a stretch than others)
Feudalism - nope
Construction - hell no
Mysticism, Polytheism. Monarchy - sure
Chivalry - How you can even remotely believe that the Iroquois had a system of Chivalry is beyond me. The virtues of quote:
piety, honor, valor, courtesy, chastity, and loyalty |
are not seen in Iroquois warriors the way they were seen in European society during the mid to late middle ages.
Engineering - There weren't even any Iroquois road systems! How can you say that they knew Engineering!!
Trade - rudamentry, but ok.
Astronomy - not a very rich understanding, no.
Philosophy - ok, in their own way, yes.
Navigation - no way. Uh-uh. Not even close. Show me a non coastal Iroquois journey by ship and I'll agree.
The Republic - nope. Show me representative government in the Iroquois society. Please. And don't bring up the seven nations ****...that's not a republic, that's an alliance among people who hate each other for defensive purposes. And they still couldn't make it work, as shown by the American revolution.
Chemistry - now you're just making me laugh.
Leadership - not even close.
Invention - any society can have invention. Stupid advance for civ...so I'll give it to you on that basis.
Medicine - again, rudamentry...based on religious theory.
Monotheism - when do you remember the Iroquois being Monotheistic? Those that converted to Christianity to avoid being killed? Sorry, burnt...doesn't count. But you do earn some lovely parting gifts.
Tactics - This is broad...but still, military intelligence was non-existant. It was a battle of numbers, and skill...not tactics.
Democracy -  
Theology - Nope. They didn't have anything to study or examine. Research some of these terms dear, before you try to debate about them.
Metallurgy - 
Communism - show me an Iroquois period which Communism existed. You're starting to make me ill.
Guerilla Warfare - finally, something I can give you credit for amidst these lies and half truths. Yes, they had Guerilla warfare and were damn good at it. Probably the one and ONLY thing the Iroquois taught Euros.
Environmentalism - you can't learn to protect the environment until you've begun destroying it. I don't count this simply because they were careful not to tick off the earth moon and wind Gods.
Go do some research, and come back when you know what you're talking about...
  HATE RIBANNAH!! HATE RIBANNAH!!
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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Originally posted by Christantine The Great
The Aztecs, as AoK puts it, were at a cultural dead end. They were simply more advanced barbarians who barely held on to that empire (I bet that...800 men could topple it). Of course there needs to be more civs in America and the Incas couldn't fit on the CivII map. |
Christantine- 1.) They thought the Spanish Were Gods, 2.) the Spanish had indian help, 3.) MOST IMPORTANTLY- the spanish had guns and got into their capital city and sacked it. 4.)Disease, possibly more important than #3
The Aztec had writing, games, culture, etc.
Ribannah- Riflemen  hah! I doubt they would have developed gunpowder on their own, not to any fault of their own, but because of supply and demand- as far as I see it, they were supplied by Europeans for most of their advanced weaponry.
IROQUOIS DID NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHEIFS VOTED!
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But, as an example, today Mohawk construction workers are most celebrated as they have no fear of heights. I'll get back to you in more detail later. |
I am awed
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compass, the periodic table and gunpowder? |
Iroquois never developed gunpowder on its own.
Compass- Europeans
Periodic Table- Not invented until Mendeleev
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Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Iron Working (not sure), Currency, Seafaring, Literacy, University, Bridge Building, Gunpowder |
I am assuming you are saying that the Iroquois never developed these.
NO HORSES EXISTED IN AMERICA UNTIL THE EUROPEANS!
Last edited by DarkCloud on 08-10-2001 at 05:57
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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IROQUOIS DID NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHEIFS VOTED! |
I take it you're talking about making decisions, not selecting representatives, which can be done in other democratic ways than voting.
AMERICANS DO NOT HAVE DEMOCRACY- only the CHIEFS VOTE!
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Iroquois never developed gunpowder on its own. |
Americans never developed gunpowder on their own.
Chinese, rather. Anyway, no Americans.
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Periodic Table- Not invented until Mendeleev |
Wrong again. French invention. Anyway, no Americans.
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NO HORSES EXISTED IN AMERICA UNTIL THE EUROPEANS! |
Well, they did, but not the mountable kind.
Poor Americans! Didn't invent Horseback Riding on their own either. Away with them!
Btw after European contact the Iroquois developed Currency on their own.
Last edited by Ribannah on 08-10-2001 at 05:55
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Chivalry - How you can even remotely believe that the Iroquois had a system of Chivalry is beyond me. The virtues of are not seen in Iroquois warriors the way they were seen in European society during the mid to late middle ages.
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While I agree with most of what you're saying, Orange, let's be honest here. Those virtues were most assuredly not seen in European warriors either. That was the ideal. It was not practiced--it was barely even attempted.
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Man, I post a good 500 words bashing everything you believe to be right, and that's your return fire? You should be ashamed to represent your case. Even guy was able to rebut something I said, but not you. You don't even make a point.
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"Even Guy", huh? Wow, what a ringing endorsement that was.
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Speaking of which, my point Guy and DC, was that it was a European philosophy and that's what it was based on. The Japanese had a similar code, and there was even a theoretical "code of the west" in American times. The Iroquois did not invent or implement such a theory in their society, nor did they have 'knights', the armies that chivalry pertained to. |
My point was: what good is a philosophy that no one follows? Chivalry existed only in the literature of the period; it did not exist in practice, at all. So what if the Europeans "invented" chivalry; they implimented it no more than the Iroquois did. To invent such a philosophy but not practice it... I don't know, it seems like that civilization is even more primitive--to invent a higher ideal and then do nothing to achieve it. Besides, I've always considered knights to be a product of feudalism, not (nonexistant) chivalry.
Ahh, anyway, we're straying from the point. While I don't agree with a lot of what Rib says, I support the inclusion for the Iroquois, and think it was done for all the right reasons. 
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Fiil
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of the cold north
Aug 2001
time: 06:15
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Ahh, now I needed that smiley by Gramphos:
:muhahaha: (Evil laughing smiley)
If anyone is unsure how to start an argument after this...
-Simply ask Ribannah to speak her mind-
Anyway I like this discussion because IMO it concerns the fundamental part of our difference in opinion.
Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Guerilla Warfare, Polytheism, Mysticism: I think we agree on these.
Bronze Working: Did they fabricate their own bronze? Or did they only use copper? I honestly don't know, so you tell me.
Masonry: You need to build in stone here, I don't think the Iroquois ever did this?
Map Making: Again I don't know, did they draw their own maps? And were these so close to correct in distances that another person could follow them. "Treasure maps" don't count!
Writing: This will take more than four symbols on a belt! For one thing it requires sentences, not only nouns put together to give a general meaning.
Code of Laws: A complete list of crimes with punishments, I don't know if they had this but I doubt it.
Mathematics: Geometry and arithmetics at least, again I doubt they had it.
Construction: The very basics of contruction includes the knowledge of how to raise a selfsupporting arc, the romans were one of the first people to learn this.
Navigation: The ability to orientate after the stars alone. I doubt they could do this.
Engineering: Engineers use scientific approach in solving all problems. This includes calculations on constructions. The military or civil engineer at which this "discovery" is clearly aimed also use simple mechanisms like transmissions. I should know this btw.
When the competetors in the surviver show build a wodden hut they don't use any construction principles and it doesn't make them engineers either.
Monotheism: Requires them to have one god! Explaination please.
Medicine: To make this more than witchcraft, it is necessary to know the functions of the different parts of the body (this includes most entrails). Having medicine means you're educating some members in your tribe systematicly, and that every 'medicine man' uses the same approach.
Chemistry: This is not alchemy! This is knowing that substances are made up of atoms with specific properties.
Theology: Like medicine this requires literacy and university without it you simply cannot assure a systematical training of students.
Metallurgy: This makes no sence without cast iron.
Tactics: Here I'm not sure, but to make this a discovery that all stoneage men didn't have, this must be the military tactics needed to control an army of infantry, cavalry and artillery at the same time so that these enforces eachother.
Monarchy: This is when the crown is inherited, not when a king is voted for like in the early dark ages in Europe. I don't know if it ever worked this way for the Iroquois, but it doesn't count if the son/daughter of a chief is elected.
Feudalism, The Republic, Democracy, Communism: Are all a bit hard to talk about when you only have 25000 citizens who are also divided into five or six independant nations.
Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy: Yeah, they probably knew something here, this leaves it up to basics/advanced.
Chivalry, Leadership, Invention, Environmentalism: Are IMO all abstracts hard to discuss.
I was actually hoping you would explain your choices Rib!
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
You mean like the compass, the periodic table and gunpowder?
Wow! Put them in the game! |
Ribannah,
"Most" was the operative word in my post. I bet that even you can understand what the word "most" means. However, I must say that I already expected that kind of answer from you... 
And, no, I meant like Mathematics, Construction, Engineering, Astronomy and Philosophy (to name a few), actually.
But still, the Compass and Gunpowder were indeed old news to the Chinese (and to the Indians and Arabs) 400 years before European contact with the Iroquese.
So don't try to be so awfully smart! 
Last edited by Fiera on 08-10-2001 at 17:12
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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Thank you, Ironwood, for some serious input!
In general, you're taking your own civilization's applications and ways as point of departure. Also, you read a little too much in my post.
Writing: the Iroquois (and others) sent and received diplomats and used messages on wampums to confirm treaties. Btw, not just the figurines on the wampums have meaning, the colors and margins etc. have meaning as well.
Code of Laws: documented on wampums
Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego  .)
Size has nothing to do with it. Even so, the community houses and the town walls were good-sized. Several different materials were combined to build them, and building had to be done in the right order. This is way beyond sticking some poles in the ground and hanging some hides!
Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable.
Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it.
Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land.
Chemistry: the Iroquois used chemistry (combining substances to turn them into other substances) for a.o. leather tanning, dye, polish, waterproofing, food preservation (pemmican, smoking) and medicine. In civ2, Chemistry comes early in the tree (around Gunpowder, far before the discovery of the periodic table), so IMHO this qualifies.
Leadership: communication and control in a military campaign. It has really nothing to do with horses per se. For communication the Iroquois used runners (much faster than any European, and beating any horse in the forest) and smoke signals (Europeans: flags). For control they had warrior chiefs in several ranks.
Tactics: partitioning the military and using manoeuvres. The Iroquois used patrols, flank attacks, feigns, decoys, stealth, timed attacks, combined attacks (foot and canoe), and any military tactic we might think of, and they were good at it. How else could they consistently beat larger rivals, who had equal weapons?
You may be right about Masonry. While it is unlikely that the Iroquois wouldn't be able to build a stone wall or dwelling, they simply didn't do it - obviously they had no use for it, moving to new village sites every 20 years or so, but that's how it is. They might have had the skill, but there is no proof. I added it to the list without much thought since they did have construction and math but as I said myself, there tech tree is different from ours. So Masonry goes, for that they had Woodcraft.
  LOVE HIAWATHA!! LOVE HIAWATHA!! (thank you Aaglo )
Last edited by Ribannah on 08-10-2001 at 17:18
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego .)
Size has nothing to do with it. |
quote:
Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable. |
I've got a better definition for ya. Chivalry was marked by a period of STIRRUP use by horsemen. This enabled the man on horseback to control the animal with his feet, rather than his arms. His arms were then free to attack at units below. Prior to Chivalry, cavalry units were not used as the main method of attack...it was infantry related. Show me an Iroquois stirrup...please, let alone an Iroquois knight.
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Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it. |
These are simple machines, dearie, and the Iroquois didn't even have knowledge of them all! You can not consider this Engineering. There is no such thing as an Iroquois made 'machine'.
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Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land. |
This is a definition of map making. Very primitive map making.
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You may be right about Masonry. While it is unlikely that the Iroquois wouldn't be able to build a stone wall or dwelling, they simply didn't do it - obviously they had no use for it, moving to new village sites every 20 years or so, but that's how it is. They might have had the skill, but there is no proof. I added it to the list without much thought since they did have construction and math but as I said myself, there tech tree is different from ours. So Masonry goes, for that they had Woodcraft. |
You can't say "well they didn't need to do it, but they had knowledge of it"
We have knowledge of ways to create super advanced robot controlled space ships that navigate throughout the unknown universe and bring back alien slave children. We just don't need to build them. But we have the knowledge!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You know if Ribannah is going to happily assign her own Iroquoisized definiton of every advance on the tech tree, then ya know what...
The Iroquois also had knowledge of Advanced Flight because of Native American ballooning. They had knowledge of Steel as well, becuase well...it was something they thought about but just never got around to doing in their busy schedules. They also had knowledge of Communism, before the term Communism was ever coined...this is because they had knowledge of telepathy, they even knew that the Euros were coming, which is why they prepared huge amounts of tanks to crush them as they landed. After all, they did have knowledge of Tank Warfare. A horse can be considered a tank.
Us Euro/Americans have been in the dark for soooooo long
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Construction: construction is nothing more than the skill to "put things together in a logical and complete way", or a more scientific definiton, "planning, designing and building of structures and/or infrastructure". (Think of Lego .)
Size has nothing to do with it. Even so, the community houses and the town walls were good-sized. Several different materials were combined to build them, and building had to be done in the right order. This is way beyond sticking some poles in the ground and hanging some hides!
Chivalry: I guess it depends om whether you attach a strictly military (cheval = French for horse) or a broader social meaning to the word (honor, doing the right thing). I took the latter meaning, but the opposite point of view is just as defendable. |
Any society could be argued as having chivalry- chinese, european,etc. All that this defines is "Rules for war."
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Engineering: the use of machinery on order to do the same work faster (plus incorporating planning etc. from construction).
Iroquois knowledge about Engineering is very limited, but not totally absent. They had wedges, levers, drills and sleds, but for lack of The Wheel they got stuck there. I guess you could say they didn't master this technology, but were a novice at it. |
Engineer- "en·gi·neer (nj-nîr)
n.
One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
One who operates an engine. "
OMG! The Iroquois had engines!
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Navigation: finding your way without the aid of recognizing your surroundings. If anyone was able to do that, it was the Amerind. Most don't even have words for left and right and other relative directional terms, as they are always aware of their absolute direction. Not just from the sun and the stars, but also from moss growing on trees and such things. This made them the greatest scouts on mother Earth. The Iroquois did not go out on the ocean, because they didn't live near the ocean. But they were excellent navigators on land and lake, using all the information nature provided. While the Europeans were better on sea, the Amerind tribes were better on land.
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Navigation in CIV III refers to navigation in the ocean, rivers (at least in Civ II) were not navigatable! Iroquois lived near the ocean, they could have gone down any of the rivers that emptied into the ocean- they just had not advanced to the need to visit the ocean.
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Leadership: communication and control in a military campaign. It has really nothing to do with horses per se. For communication the Iroquois used runners (much faster than any European, and beating any horse in the forest) and smoke signals (Europeans: flags). For control they had warrior chiefs in several ranks. |
Any warrior society had the type of leadership you describe.
Tactics: partitioning the military and using manoeuvres. The Iroquois used patrols, flank attacks, feigns, decoys, stealth, timed attacks, combined attacks (foot and canoe), and any military tactic we might think of, and they were good at it. How else could they consistently beat larger rivals, who had equal weapons?
[/QUOTE]
They didn't have larger rivals- they outnumbere3d the rivals... Not in the entire colonies, but in the part of new york they resided
Everything you described was present in the Spanish, Inca, Mongols, and more so.
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Orange- However, I do believe that the Iroquois could probably have helped the British win the Revolutionary war if they tried... The Iroquois could have possibly destroyed the weak Continental army if they teamed up with the British... However, if the entire Continental army faced an equally numbered Iroquois force, the Continental army would have destroyed it--- the Iroquois would beat weapons by sheer force of numbers.
----
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08-10-2001 05:28
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