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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:
Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism
While the disagreements are mainly with:
Construction, Chivalry, Engineering, Navigation, Theology, Communism |
I don't think anyone agrees on Medicine, Republic, or Democracy. And I know I don't agree with Feudalism Astronomy or Leadership. But it's good to see that you can make concessions.
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Possibly, but to arm those slaves, you have to have control over the area they're in...which means you've already taken the territory, which means there's no need to arm the slaves (except for defensive purposes) |
Good point, but not necessarily true, if they smuggled weapons in... but then again the slaves couldn't probably load and use the weapons without training, so you win one point. 
quote:
Once again, the Americans were starving the Brits to a last stand. There was no "just one more month" and even if there was, the French navy was there to stop any such attempt. |
The French navy left after 1 month, they were over at least one month gone when Cornwallis surrendered, Britain had returned one week late with reinforcements.
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DC, check this. I'm almost positive it was closer to 30 million colonists -> 9 million British. I may be wrong. But I'm fairly sure that numbers is ridiculously low. |
Every thing I have seen is 3 million to 9 million.
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50? What do you base that on?! |
Nothing, it sounds reasonable.
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75% effort at least. And the other 25% wouldn't have been 'just enough' to change the tide of the war. |
But possibly temporarily delay victory.
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:
Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism
While the disagreements are mainly with:
Construction, Chivalry, Engineering, Navigation, Theology, Communism
I can live with this, even if some of you would individually like to move a few more items from the first to the second list I'd say the Iroquois did pretty well on their own, with their Golden Age yet to come. Most other civs in the top 16 could build on what older civs had discovered. |
...now you are being more reasonable
I still disagree with Democracy, Republic ESPECIALLY since you list Monarchy in your list!
Democracy in an Alliance- that is always a true option. They united, yes, however, all alliances have always been democracies unless one party is greater than the other (see ancient hebrew alliances with babylon,etc.)
-How can Iroquois have both Monarchy and Republic!
I Also disagree with mathematics, and possibly environmentalism.
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Fiil
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of the cold north
Aug 2001
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
So, to sum up, at this point most of us seem to agree about, or at least to some extent:
Pottery, Alphabet, Warrior Code, Bronze Working equivalent, Ceremonial Burial, Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics, Feudalism, Mysticism, Polytheism, Monarchy, Trade, Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic, Leadership, Medicine, Monotheism, Tactics, Democracy, Guerilla Warfare, Environmentalism |
Bronze Working: OK they knew about metals like copper and silver and they used them for tools ect. Unfortunately civ2 doesn't reward this. The mixing of copper and tin in a certain proportion under certain conditions are a much bigger achievement, this is what the discovery is about IMO.
Mathematics: Basic geometry includes being able to use something simular to Pythagoras law aswell as the sine, cosine and tangens equations for rectangular triangles. Arithmetics includes irrational numbers like Pi and the square root of two or at least fractions.
Tactics: The Iroquois probably planned their battles and used overall strategies. But tactics IMO includes being able to strenghten and weaken your lines with reinforsments, being able to rally broken troops and stop pursuing troops, being able to flank or surround enemy troops (without hidding). This was first made possible when the commander stopped being in the front line, and stayed behind his troops to get the broader view.
I also disagree with Code of Laws, Monarchy, Medicine and Environmentalism for reasons already explained.
Regarding Astronomy, Philosophy, The Republic and Democracy they had some knowledge on these subjects.
quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
I can live with this, even if some of you would individually like to move a few more items from the first to the second list I'd say the Iroquois did pretty well on their own, with their Golden Age yet to come. Most other civs in the top 16 could build on what older civs had discovered. |
They sure did! Eventhough I think you overdo it a bit they are more advanced than I ever imagined.
Now I think I will call them a true civilization (though I still think 25000 is a little too few to be real independant). But I find it easy to understand why Firaxis chose them, and I'm looking forward to seing them in action.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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Here is some info on Iroquois agriculture (also re: environmentalism.)
http://nativenet.uthscsa.edu/archive/nl/9408/0185.html
quote:
The next time you bite into a sweet ear of corn think of this: people in the Americas have been growing this fabulous vegetable for 7,000 years. Corn, our most important native crop, was already part of an ancient tradition when Columbus first landed on these shores. Corn was so important to Native Americans it was considered a gift from the creator.
The people we know as the Iroquois used corn as an integral part of an agricultural tradition and method they called "The Three Sisters." They
interplanted corn, beans, and squash together in hills, where they grew
together for the remainder of the season.
"Interplanting has many advantages," says Marcia Eames-Sheavly, gardening specialist with Cornell Cooperative Extension and author of "The Three Sisters: Exploring an Iroquois Garden."
"Iroquois farmers adapted this ecological planting method to meet the needs of their crops and their people," Eames-Sheavly says. "Interplanted crops are not as attractive to pests as are large plantings of one crop. The corn supports the beans, the beans provide nitrogen for the corn, and the squash or pumpkins help to control weeds." ... |
and:
quote:
""We're now coming to realize what a sophisticated and sustainable cropping system the Iroquois had," said Mt. Pleasant, Cornell assistant professor of soil, crop and atmospheric sciences and coordinator of the American Indian Agriculture Project.
"They fed a sizeable population for hundreds of years without chemical fertilizers, pesticides or tillage (the Iroquois used no plows or draft animals) and without exceeding the carrying capacity of the land." |
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted!
Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain.
The Iroquois League, never had more than 6 nations in it at any one time... Sometimes they had less close allies, but they never were part of it, thus you cannot count them as feeding them.
And yes, they did trade food, but that does NOT say they were environmentalists. They just did not have access to pesticides, etc.
-The Iroquois : Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic!
The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy... the Greeks came the closest- not everyone voted on every issue, not everyone was even allowed to- how can they have chiefs and have a democracy.
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quote:
Any tribe can have knowledge of all government types, |
orange- good point
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted!
Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain.
The Iroquois League, never had more than 6 nations in it at any one time... Sometimes they had less close allies, but they never were part of it, thus you cannot count them as feeding them.
And yes, they did trade food, but that does NOT say they were environmentalists. They just did not have access to pesticides, etc.
-The Iroquois : Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic!
The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy... the Greeks came the closest- not everyone voted on every issue, not everyone was even allowed to- how can they have chiefs and have a democracy.
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orange- good point |
Yes, again, respect for nature Gods is one thing, preserving and protecting the environment is another.
IMO, you can't have environmentalism until you've begun not only understanding exactly how the environment works, but also until you've begun to use things that destroy it. The Iroquois had neither.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ribannah- that is not environmentalism, it is however, fairly advanced farming- these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food, it was less susceptable to pests if they interplanted! |
Historians consider the interplanting method on par with the terraces used by the southern tribes, and only the Hopi are considered to have had advanced further before contact.
Unfortunately, their is no agriculture tech in the game  .
quote:
Also, food for 25,000 is not very hard to obtain. |
True, but before their golden age, they had many close neighbours, the Iroquois tribes that didn't join the league among them.
quote:
Their leaders may have been appointed or some people may have said "so and so" is the greatest warrior- thus they did elect chieftans. But not in a true way... If you consider this a republic then any of the ancient tribes in the game would be considered as having a Republic! |
A Republic is a government system where the ruling body - for instance a senate, but likewise a council of elders - chooses their own members - not the people. Strictly speaking for a Republic the selection criterium is wealth, and if it is wisdom instead it should have another name, but civ2 doesn't make that distinction.
quote:
The Iroquois most certainly did not have a democracy, no nation on earth has or has had a democracy... |
Ah, but that is a different discussion. We are talking in civ2 terms here, where the Statue of Liberty accompanies the tech even while at the time women and non-whites weren't allowed to vote.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
Ribannah - if you don't have anything coherent to post, please, do us all a favor, don't post. |
Hey, we all pad our post count a little, don't we?
I realize I posted this in the wrong forum:
quote:
Looking over past posts that I missed, I was very interested in this idea of determining exactly which techs the Iroquois can be said to have possessed prior to European influence. I had alot of strong disagreements with what people said about certain techs and what qualified...but felt orange hit the nail on the head buy using the Civ2 Civilopedia tech descriptions. I think these should be the standard, as they are the closest we can get game designer's intent.
Another point is the starting tech. Every settler in 4000 BC starts with a minimum of two techs...Irrigation and Roads.
Since the Iroquois possessed neither, I see that as a further indication that they should not qualify as a "civilization." |
Again...without these rudimentary skills, which Civ2 obviously considered vital to being a civilization, how can we include the Iroquois?
Cheers.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Ribannah- that is not environmentalism ... these people were not thinking about the land, they were thinking about their food |
Here's a piece I stumbled on while researching the Goldrush:
http://www.globallearningnj.org/mineb.htm
quote:
One of the concepts implicit in sustainable development is intergenerational responsibility. Sustainability implies a balance between the basic needs of the inhabitants of the earth and the environment, the resource base which supplies those needs. Intergenerational responsibility implies a concern that the present use of resources will ensure that future generations will be able to meet their needs also.
This is not a new concept. For example, Native American tradition included intergenerational concern in the Great Law of the Haudenosaunee, People of the Longhouse -- The Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy (Oneida, Cayuga, Tuscarora, Mohawk, Onondaga and Seneca). "In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our decisions on the next seven generations." |
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ironwood
 Well, I see Ribannah has managed to completely ignore the concepts presented in my post, as do all who blindly hold to a fantasy when it is challenged reasonably. Still including Philosophy, Navigation, Leadership, etc. eh? Not even a word of refutation for me, right?
I don't care about the governmental techs. They are a gameplay simplification anyway. We could sit and argue the nature of the governmental techs until we're blue in the face; nobody will be convinced of anything. Such arguments generally begin and end with the assertation "There's no such thing as Democracy" and degenerate into a cesspool of semantics. So you can have all the governments. Hell, I'll give you communism and fundamentalism, if you want them.
The original poster didn't ask which words which are used for techs could be applied in a twisted manner to the Cherokee. He asked which *civ techs* could be applied. Your inclusion of Leadership belies this concept.
I'm done with this thread. There is nothing more to be accomplished. |
I don't blame you one bit man. Don't worry though, I'm glad you posted what you did. It made me think of more stuff. 
I'm too stubborn to let her fling **** around, so I'll stay until she A) realizes she's wrong or B) Shut's the hell up.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
In Civ II Statue of Liberty= Democracy for all land holding white males... all of them vote- I think it was a bit more limited in the Iroquois lands
ribannah- you refuted none of my statements coherently or deftly- only "possibly" the democracy statement- and even then, you knew you were wrong. |
http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/index.html
Re: Democracy
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On June 11, 1776 while the question of independence was being debated, the visiting Iroquois chiefs were formally invited into the meeting hall of the Continental Congress. There a speech was delivered, in which they were addressed as "Brothers" and told of the delegates' wish that the "friendship" between them would "continue as long as the sun shall shine" and the "waters run." The speech also expressed the hope that the new Americans and the Iroquois act "as one people, and have but one heart." After this speech, an Onondaga chief requested permission to give Hancock an Indian name. The Congress graciously consented, and so the president was renamed "Karanduawn, or the Great Tree." With the Iroquois chiefs inside the halls of Congress on the eve of American Independence, the impact of Iroquois ideas on the founders is unmistakable. History is indebted to Charles Thomson, an adopted Delaware, whose knowledge of and respect for American Indians is reflected in the attention that he gave to this ceremony in the records of the Continental Congress.
Artwork by John Kahionhes Fadden.
from Exemplar of Liberty, Native America and the Evolution of Democracy, Chp.8, "A New Chapter, Images of native America in the writings of Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine" |
The tribal structure of the Iroquois is quite complicated, because apart from the nations and the confederacy, they also had clans (eight of them). Marriage within a clan was not permitted. The main clans, that existed even before the formation of separate tribes, were (are) present in all of the nations as well as in many other tribes.
The clan (within a community) had a democratic assembly of all male and female adult members, all with equal votes. This assembly elected sachems (peace-chiefs), war-chiefs and also the other "Keepers of the Faith," and deposed them; it took decisions regarding blood revenge or payment of atonement for murdered members; it adopted strangers into the clan. In short, it was the sovereign power in the clan.
The sachems from the several clans formed the council of a tribe (nation) to handle tribal affairs. Representatives of these councils sat in the Grand Council of the confederacy. The Five Nations Grand Council counted 50 sachems in total.
Every single member of the tribe(s), male or female, had the right to participate in every discussion. Any decision made by any council had to be unanimous.
(Compiled from the same text by Fredrick Engels as mentioned in my previous post.)
Edit: What Engels doesn't mention is that the sachems - always male - were nominated by the clan mothers of families holding hereditary rights to office titles. The Grand Council at Onondaga could also nominate sachems outside the hereditary structure, based on merit alone. These sachems, called "pine tree chiefs," were said to have sprung from the body of the people as the symbolic
Great White Pine springs from the earth. These two additions add Monarchic and Republican elements to the government of the Iroquois.
Last edited by Ribannah on 13-10-2001 at 05:47
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orange
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It doesn't matter what your name is!
Feb 2000
time: 00:15
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nope, I'm not buying it. First of all, the declaration of independence had already been written signed and accepted.
Secondly, the Articles of Confederation were formed shortly after, which as we all know, failed miserably. The actual constitution, the basis for American democracy, wasn't created until 1781, at which I assure you no Iroquois tribe leaders attended.
What your PC site quote shows, Ribannah, is that an Iroquois guy tried to plead with the Americans for peace between his people and there's. There is not ONE thing you posted that says "Such and such Iroquois person outlined a democratic system" or anything CLOSE.
In all actuality, an Iroquois tribe leader came in, called Hancock a tree, and pleaded for a peace that would never be realized. NOT DEMOCRACY!
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10-10-2001 06:55
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