08-10-2001 03:26									#31
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I doubt the possibility that Civ2 will be abandoned for Civ3 all of a sudden. wanted or not, Civ2 scenarios will continue to prosper well into Civ3's heydays. Somehow, I sense that the motive for doing this isn't because that SLeague is redundant in some way, but rather a limitation of some sort, perhaps in web space or the number of fora.

	08-10-2001 03:34									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera And, come to think of it, why not a Civ-Community forum?

what do you think the "Community" part in the title of the "Apolyton/Community" forum is for?

	08-10-2001 03:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh There is a distinction between the SL site and the SL forum that you are not making. Why not?

because if the SL is not updated, i dont see a reason for the discussion of the SL forum not to be in the forums they should normally be(scenario discussions in civ2-creation, pbem threads in civ2-mp)

quote: The SL site, despite not having been updated for some months is still an excellent resource. Apparently there are technical reasons it cannot be updated by some people. Why not, and what are you doing about it?

i dont recall the exact nature of the problem, i think in the end both our tech and the people involved gave up trying to solve it

quote: Other sites, like Hodadian Awards and it's associated forum have been completely moribund for years, with no threat of closure. Why not?

cause noone brought up the issue of discussing civ3-creation issues in the hac forum

quote: We still don't know the creative potential of Civ3. Apparently we do know it won't have multiplayer capability. Why does this question need to be settled now?

first of all, what does mp have to do with this? there is certainly lots of info on the modification of civ3, and it seems to be highly mod-friendly. so i guess it's better to clear up things now

	08-10-2001 03:47									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike a limitation of some sort, perhaps in web space or the number of fora.

there is no such issue. the SL forum would probably be a closed(no new posts allowed) sub-forum of the civ2-general or something like that

	08-10-2001 04:22									#35
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Shadowstrike hit the nail right on the head, thanks ol buddy.

I have indeed been experiencing many problems with updating the site. Free time is not an issue, I have lots of free time and there is nothing I would rather do than dedicate it all to Civ2.

However, this is not the case. I lost my computer to a lightning storm some time back and resorted to using an 18K, 2GHDD, Pentium I, laptop. Needless to say, this piece of garbage won't let me run the FTP software and constantly tells me I have a bad connection. Usually I can run ICQ to alleviate the connection problem, BUT when I do this the computer locks up. It's a no win situation.

Buying a new computer is out of the question at the moment, financial problems which need'nt be discussed with the public have given me enough money each week to pay for gas and food and that's it. I've been scrounging all of my spare money in order to purchase a new computer JUST FOR THIS. And, hopefully, by Christmas i'll have a comp capable of running FTP successfully.

I'm also in a bit of a situation because I originally signed up with Stefan. He was going to do the articles, reviews, editing and text based area of SLeague whilst I handled all the programming/HTML aspects of it. That also fell through and my pleas to get some help with the site have gone unanswered or have just fallen through. I can expect Cam to help since he has the same FTP problems and has moved on with his life, it would'nt be right of me. I'm still looking for help, but i'm pretty positive that once I can fix the FTP situation on my end i'll have no problem handling the upkeep of the site.

As for the usefulness of SLeague, as I said in another thread similar to this, SLeague IS going to be expanded if it kills me. This means new sections for CtP1/2, Civ3 and, if MoO3 has scenario capabilities then i'll add a section for that as well.

The moderation of the forums is not lacking, I check here when people ask me to and at least four times a week to make sure nothing gotten out of hand. I merely don't visit any of the other forums anymore.

The problem of Civ3 and Civ2 mixing can be alleviated by one simple rule. If you post a thread about a scenario in the forum simply add a little "Civ3:" to the beginning and then the rest of the thread title. It's simple and effective in preventing any mixups. If someone forgets, it's not that hard to drop me a line and ask me to edit it. I don't mind at all.

I'm still very into Civ2 Scenario creation and playing and have looked forward to updating the site for some time if just to add some stuff i've always wanted to see on it. The site is still useful as possibly THE best scenario resource and I want that reputation to continue into the far future.

If anyone has a problem with what i'm doing, they're free to step in and take my place. I've stated my position and I hope that makes everyone happy, if not, then there's nothing else I can say.

	08-10-2001 06:49									#36
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Maybe someone else could be given FTP access, and WV can send all of the updates to them from his laptop to be put up? Its not a perfect fix, but it cuold work. And don't pick me to be the FTP guy, since I'm the one who cannot run any sort of IM software (or EU either, it seems)

	08-10-2001 07:13									#37
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Wow, my home internet connection goes dead, and all of a sudden people start talking about shutting down my favorite webpage!

Leave the Scenario League Forum Open!
It's great for 'advanced' discussion of scenario making, and serves as a 'clubhouse' for scenario makers in the way that the creation forum never could.
Sure it's not focused on any paricular area of Civ, but IMHO that's this forums beatuty (anyway, this board is relativly spam free compared to most areas of Apolyton )

	08-10-2001 07:17									#38
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Let me get this straight, Markos. If we don't update the SL site we can't keep the forum. And we can't update the site because of technical problems on your site/server which you "don't recall." Do I have it right?

Last edited by techumseh on 08-10-2001 at 08:30

	08-10-2001 08:22									#39
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Hmm, have to shoot my two cents here, Mark.

Why not simply add Civ-2 creation to the league title and kill the OTHER forum?

That's the one that is rarely used, not this one.

WV has said a number of times he will update when his tech permits, so why insist on this change now (and all the ill will it is generating) ?

Is it THAT important that it's hosted site is closed due to technical difficulties that it's forum must also close?

Seems rather rediculous to me, that you wish to kill an active and vibrant forum in favor of a dead and boring one.

Add to it, that someday soon, the SL will be updated properly, and will include civ-3 and other features, as WV indicated.

I missed the SL site so much I copied parts of it for CFC, so that the spirt of the league could live on, and there are dedicated people who still want to make this work.

So, WV, drop me a line, perhaps I can help some, in getting the league running again, at least to get the Macedonian off our back!

	08-10-2001 11:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh Let me get this straight, Markos. If we don't update the SL site we can't keep the forum. And we can't update the site because of technical problems on your site/server which you "don't recall." Do I have it right?

read warvoid's post above on the exact nature of the problem

	08-10-2001 13:15									#41
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I interpret that response as meaning if we get a new moderator who can update the site, then the forum stays. Is that right? And what about your responsibility to make sure that the site is in fact accessible to someone with reasonable skills and equipment? If Cam, who maintains an internet site as part of his job, can't access the upload to your server, then who's to say the next person will be able to? Where's YOUR responsibility in all of this Markos?

	08-10-2001 13:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh I interpret that response as meaning if we get a new moderator who can update the site, then the forum stays. Is that right?

of course. all this time i have been starting my posts with "if the site is not updated"....

quote: And what about your responsibility to make sure that the site is in fact accessible to someone with reasonable skills and equipment? If Cam, who maintains an internet site as part of his job, can't access the upload to your server, then who's to say the next person will be able to? Where's YOUR responsibility in all of this Markos?

yes, i'm guilty of not trying hard enough to have our tech figure out what the problem with Cam was. i'm terribly sorry for that. i hope the community accepts my apology.

	08-10-2001 14:00									#43
	Guys, lets chill out... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Let me ask this...


Why does the person who moderates the forum have responsibilities to maintain the website in the first place? As far as I see it (though it doesn't really matter how I see it) is that this forum obviously operates independently form the website. The site hasn't changed, but the forum gets 'updated' by us die hards every day! If Warvoid is into it, fine. But what about asking a few others to do it who don't have to be moderators of the forum at the same time. They seem like 2 seperate jobs to me.


Moderate a Forum<-------->Run a Website.


Why can't we have people to do either...not both. I can't even envision loosing something as dear to me as my beloved SLeagueForum. This place means so much more to us that come here than some ol' generic 'Civ Creation Forum'... we are the League of Scenario Makers!

Just trying to make sense of all this like everyone else...

-FMK.

	08-10-2001 14:24									#44
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Great, glad to hear it! If you accept responsibility to fix the accessability problem, then WE need to find someone who will look after the site, and, as FMK says, another to moderate the forum. It could be both, but not necessarily. And we as a community really need to find more of a focus for the site. Any volunteers? How about you, Kull?

	08-10-2001 17:52									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG what do you think the "Community" part in the title of the "Apolyton/Community" forum is for?

It was an attempt to let Civers stay clear from CtPers and SMACers!

Jokes apart, I also think that issues regarding the civ series as a whole can be easily and well discussed in the Poly/Community forum.

	08-10-2001 23:23									#46
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quote: what do you think the "Community" part in the title of the "Apolyton/Community" forum is for?

IIRC it was an attempt to unite all Apolytoners around a single forum. When "Community" was synonomous for "Civ2 Community" we actually had quasi-community threads. Now we have column discussions and a deluge of technical threads.

In response: what do you think the "Scenario" part in the title of the "Scenario League" forum is for?

Here's a hint: the point has already been made that civ2 mp players play civ2 sans scenarios, and post accordiingly; Civ2 general is players of the unmodified game, or the occasional MPS scenario; civ2 creation is limited to civ2 creation, not play. Whereas this forum is the premier focal point for scenario users, be it playing, creation tips, annoucements. And while it had origins in civ2 I don't think Blackclove ever had in mind that that platform would be the League's raison d'etre.

Civ2 Help really lost meaning, didn't it? So few people posted there that newbies posted on general, creation, mp...everywhere but help actually. You recognised that it was redundant and merged it, as you now propose to do with creation. Perhaps that illustrates the dangers of rigid game-aspect segregation. SL covers it all, but focuses on scenarios.

	09-10-2001 00:20									#47
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Markos, your email doesn't work because of Reason: 5.7.1 ... Relaying denied

Scenario League 3.0

I am willing to develop a successor site to ScenLeague oriented towards a range of 4x games including Civ2 and Civ3 while learning PHP.

quote: whistler: asp? hah! Many, MANY more people use JSP over PHP.. php is -seriously- a joke language for teenagers

I only need access to a clean directory of Apolyton and any databases currently used by the ScenLeague. The rest of the content I can grab off the net since giving out FTP rights is problematic.

	09-10-2001 11:04									#48
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I think we have the basis for a solution here:

1) MarkG has categorically stated that the forum stays if the site gets updated. So that should be our first concern.

2) Warvoid - through no fault of his own - can't do that until December at the earliest. On the other hand St. Leo has now offered to take on the task. And we're not talking about "Joe-from-left-field" here. Let's consider what St. Leo brings to the table:
- Recognized status as one of the Apolyton "old-timers". Heck, I remember when he was posting on Markos' Greek Civ II Site!
- A top scenario designer, with a well deserved reputation for inventiveness ("Roman Riots", nuff said).
- An active member of this forum - and has been so from the very beginning.
- Web Master of the acclaimed Civ2 Ziggurat, a site which was killed off through no fault of his own.

In my humble opinion, this choice is a no-brainer.

3) I've had my differences with Warvoid in the past, but kicking someone when he's down is flat out wrong. He wants to be involved, he's pleaded for patience, so I say we go with the Field Marshall Klesh solution: Separate the functions of Moderator and Web Master, and let Warvoid keep the former job.

4) To pick up where my last post left off, I still feel there should be a vigorous discussion in which we collectively define a vision of what the Scenario League should be. Include PBEM? Remain focused on the Civ series? Broaden to include offerings like CTP and MOO? Provide Scenario Reviews? Previews? Etc, etc.

There's a lot think about, and I recommend we open at least two additional threads to discuss the elements of a Scenario League Charter and the nature and content of the new Scenario League Web Site. Perhaps even a third (including a poll?) to debate and vote on new leadership for the League.

We all agree that the Scenario League must survive. But it also needs to grow and regain a focus. That's the long term challenge.

	09-10-2001 11:34									#49
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Kull, I couldn't agree more

quote: 4) To pick up where my last post left off, I still feel there should be a vigorous discussion in which we collectively define a vision of what the Scenario League should be. Include PBEM? Remain focused on the Civ series? Broaden to include offerings like CTP and MOO? Provide Scenario Reviews? Previews? Etc, etc.

IMHO, the Scenario League forum should definetly cover scenario creation for all the civilisation games and discussions of completed scenarios. The aim of this would be to promote the development of good quality scenarios.
I'm not sure wether discussions of multiplayer scenarios should be included though. While on one hand this does involve discussng scenarios on the other hand there is a MP forum...

	09-10-2001 11:39									#50
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I like it, Kull. I second the proposal, but I think we should solidify the positions of webmaster and moderator first, then organize a discussion of SL's focus. We also need to keep M.G.'s toes to the fire on the technical issues.

	09-10-2001 12:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by techumseh We also need to keep M.G.'s toes to the fire on the technical issues.

and i need to keep your toes to the fire on the content and update issues


Leo, SL does not use any databases

if you want to start from scratch, it would be better to install apache, php and mysql on your pc and work there(using ftp to upload updated scripts while development is not the coolest thing i have in mind ). when you're done we could just upload everything up

	09-10-2001 12:14									#52
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Fair enough!

	09-10-2001 12:49									#53
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to St. Leo! I could not think of anyone better than him for this job!

	10-10-2001 02:25									#54
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(using ftp to upload updated scripts while development is not the coolest thing i have in mind ).

How crashable is PHP? CF errors just give you an error message on the output page.

when you're done we could just upload everything up

By "done", do you you mean when the basics are working correctly and I am still developing features off-line?

	10-10-2001 02:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo How crashable is PHP? CF errors just give you an error message on the output page.

same thing

quote: By "done", do you you mean when the basics are working correctly and I am still developing features off-line?

more or less
what do you have in mind?

	10-10-2001 02:42									#56
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what do you have in mind?

I am thinking of developing the tips section first and then tackling the rest of the stuff. When would you be able to email me an FTP username/password?

[mail]petrazi@sprint.ca[/mail]

	10-10-2001 06:58									#57
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I fully agree with St. Leo and Kull's proposals. I'd be more than willing to work with St. Leo on updating and expanding the site. As I do a lot of SHTML/HTML programming now, doing some pages here and there won't be a problem.

I can simply write the pages, zip them into an archive and forward them to Leo's e-mail addy.

This would be wonderful and i'm very happy Leo has offered his help. I cannot thank him enough.

St. Leo, contact me on ICQ or via e-mail at eithe UIN # 73438757 or at warvoid@aol.com, we have much to discuss my friend.

Also, Cam was using CuteFTP to access the 'Poly servers. I attempted to use the same service but utterly failed with continued connection denials. I'm not sure, but I can try and get ahold of Cam and see if we can't simply switch Cam's account over to Leo. Unless you'd rather simply use anothe FTP service.

	10-10-2001 07:43									#58
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I still consider myself somewhat of a newbie when it comes to scenario design. Yet one of the great things about SLeague is that everyone's welcome. I feel that if I ask a question here, people will take me seriously and respond to my question in depth - something that I'm not sure would happen in Civ2-Creation. The problem with that forum is that its readership is composed of a very small number of veterans and all of the people who are just dangling their feet in scenario design. Through no fault of anybody, the forum takes on an air of patronization to the new scen. designer, even if their question gets answered (which too many times doesn't happen).

SLeague also has the advantage of being able to know everybody, what they're working on, etc. I might even suggest an "ongoing projects" section in the website, when all of the technical and such issues are worked out.

	10-10-2001 16:00									#59
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A nice feature would be to support 'abandoned' scenarios (eg, scenarios that get abandoned while only half complete)
You could also include 'building blocks' for scenarios such as maps with cities placed, etc.

	17-10-2001 05:24									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: The question is not to have more than two forums, but what is the most logical way to break down the subject matter. Historical discussions, and other more general discussions will naturally cover both civ2 and civ3. dont think so. usually someone start such a discussion with already an idea on which game he will make the scenario, right?

Well i cant speak to the Ctp1/ctp2 question as I dont follow those. (though im under the vague impression that Ctp is less historically serious than civ ) Other than that I cant think of 2 games covered on these fora, with scenarios, as close as civ2 and Civ3. Certainly there has been no difficulty discussing the many flavors of civ2 in one place. And we occasionally have some decent discussions of what would make a good TOT scen, etc,etc.

Perhaps its not a long term consideration, but at least for the transition I am looking forward to extensive comparitive discussions of the merits of Civ2 and civ3 vis a vis scenarios, especially with regard to potential for historical accuracy. Since based on what I have seen discussed of the "civ3 original game" it does not appear to be worth $50 for another civ game, this discussion may well determine whether i buy the game at all any time soon.

How about this Mark - make two seperate forums - civ2 creation, and civ3 creation, but relax the rules on duplicate posting between the two forums. Let the discusions of civ2 rules.txt go in civ2 creation, the discussions of how to use a golden age in a scenario go in Civ3 creation, and let broad historical discussions be cross-posted (oooh ive used a dirty word) to both, at the posters discretion.

LOTM