06-10-2001 19:57									#1
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i think though that it would be more important if we clarified the future of sleague and it's forum. if the sleague forum is only going to be a parallel forum to the future Civ3-Creation forum, i dont see a point for it's existance.

But Markos, you've allowed the parellel-existence of Civ2-Creation and SLeague forums for a couple of years at least (maybe more)!

	06-10-2001 20:07									#2
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG and yes, i suppose one can say that the sleague forum is covering "civ3-creation" discussions although the site has no civ3 material. i think though that it would be more important if we clarified the future of sleague and it's forum. if the sleague forum is only going to be a parallel forum to the future Civ3-Creation forum, i dont see a point for it's existance.

MarkG: If you plan on discussing the future and purpose of the Scenario League (including - apparently - the possibility of killing it), do us a favor and move THAT discussion to the S-League Forum.

	06-10-2001 20:41									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera But Markos, you've allowed the parellel-existence of Civ2-Creation and SLeague forums for a couple of years at least (maybe more)!

yes, but at that time SL was a constantly updated site...

	06-10-2001 20:51									#4
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the posts above are from the discusion in the apolyton forum

all i'm saying is that if the SL site is going to remain not updated, we would have to have some distinction on the content of the SL forum and the future Civ3-Creation forum in order for the SL forum to have some actual reason for it's existance.

	06-10-2001 20:52									#5
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First of all, thanks Markos for moving this part of the discussion here.

quote: Originally posted by MarkG yes, but at that time SL was a constantly updated site...

Hmm, the people here will surely be able to tell you better, but I think the SL site hasn't been updated for six or seven months now.

Thing is, this is where the scenario creators community meet, discuss new ideas, and introduce their new creations, and they continue to do so, even if the site is no longer updated or doesn't receive any more reviews.

I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

	06-10-2001 20:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

it's not an issue of low traffic, it's just an issue of not mixing things up and confusing people on where they are supposed to post

	06-10-2001 20:58									#7
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quote: Thing is, this is where the scenario creators community meet, discuss new ideas, and introduce their new creations, and they continue to do so, even if the site is no longer updated or doesn't receive any more reviews. I think you could be more interested in getting rid off a forum with little or no traffic, instead or this one, which seems very much alive to me.

Absolutely. And this forum is more than a "Creation" forum - it covers all scn aspects - just think of the PBEM scn games.

However, technically it plays not a big role if we post in the Civ2 Creation area or here, but here is more traffic for sure. And I don´t know what other scn makers think, but personally I consider the SL forum as my "home" at Apolyton - it would be a pity when you close it...

	06-10-2001 21:05									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro just think of the PBEM scn games.

yeah, well, shouldnt they be in the civ2-mp forum?

	06-10-2001 21:31									#9
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How about you kill off the slated Civ3-Creation forum, and point the folks here instead? That would solve many problems.......

	06-10-2001 21:32									#10
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the thing is that most kids in the MP forum are playing CivII MP sans scenarios etc. To tell you the truth, I never even bother going to the CivII Creation forum for my scenario building needs, nor do I go to the MP forum for my PBEM needs.

The SLeague to me is like a 'home' just like BeBro said. I can even ask the kids here about historical stuff pertaining to scen building etc. This is a unique little guild of kids here, and it would be a real shame to lose it. My vote (as if I had one ) would be to have the Creation forum absorbed into this one. MP, to me, is just that...MPing the orginal game. So that nees its own realm. But Marko, you have a very dedicated community here that really helps to enrich the Apolyton experience.

Has there been an open call as of yet to ask for people to run the SLeague site itself? Personally I think we couild loose the site, but keep the forum. ACS has its own section for scen DLing so thats not really a problem as I see it. Most of the SLeague site could be absorbed into ACS without loosing much. Just my 7˘™.



-FMK.

	06-10-2001 21:58									#11
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I haven't visited any other forum but the SLeague for a LONG time.

I probably wouldn't come around anymore if I had to go to a Civ3-Creation forum just to find out what's new for Civ2.

	06-10-2001 22:02									#12
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Indeed, the lack of Sleague updates might have made this forum obsolete. But the Sleague forum has grown now, totally independant of the Sleague website (I hardly ever visited it).
The Civ2 creation forum is somewhat of a general civ2 creation help forum for newbies, while the SLeague is the place where most (veteran) Civ2 designers "hang out".
One option would be to get rid of the SL forum, replacing it by the Civ2/3 creation forums. The only real problem would be of a psychological, because the SL visitor would lose their cherished homestead.
On the other hand, the SL forum is the busiest HS forum, while the Civ2 Creation forum is not busy at all. And with the advent of Civ3, traffic to the Civ2 forums will undoubtedly decrease even more. So maybe it would be better to remove the Civ2 Creation section first, merging it with Civ2 General.
Another thing, the SL forum is more of a philosophical playground for the creators. Every aspect of civ creation and beyond is discussed here.

I don´t really know how to deal with Civ3 Creation vs Scenario League, though. This forum is bound to start discussion of Civ3 (was Hoek the first?) and then it would be a much better idea if there was only one place where people could go. It happened al too often that someone posted some new stuff in the Civ2 Creation forum, and no-one noticed, because everyone was over here. But this forum is still about Civ2, and not Civ3.
Maybe it´s best to wait until Civ3 is fully available, see what happens and then deal with the Civ2 Creation and SL forums.

	06-10-2001 22:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG all i'm saying is that if the SL site is going to remain not updated, we would have to have some distinction on the content of the SL forum and the future Civ3-Creation forum in order for the SL forum to have some actual reason for it's existance.

Much as it pains me to say so, you do have a point. But there are several issues here, so lets consider them individually:

1) "Duplicate Content" - As others have pointed out, the Civ2 Creation and Scenario League forums have coexisted for years. Personally I think there's a distinction in that the former is more of a clearinghouse for newbie-type questions, while the S-League is where the serious exploration of capabilities and enhancements is revealed and discussed.

As Bebro notes, the "sleeg" has also become something of a home for those interested in PBEM scenario games, which is a distinguishing characteristic not found in the Creation forums (and yet pertinent to the concept of a "Scenario League" of people focused on all aspects of scenarios)

On the other hand the focus of the S-League has always been Civ2 scenarios, and thus it's reasonable to ask the following question:

2) "Can and should the Scenario League focus on BOTH Civ2 and Civ3?" - One way to look at this would be a comparison with the existing situation involving Civ2 and CTP2. The latter has an active and distinguished group of Modders, and yet there's very little intercourse between their group and ours. Which is not surprising since the discussions and techniques of enhancing CTP2 have almost no relevance to Civ2, and vice versa. But from everything we've heard Civ3 is going to be an "evolutionary" upgrade to Civ2, so it's possible that we may find significant similarities between the two. Which is encouraging, because the other parrallel is between Civ2 and ToT. And no one can argue the fact that the Scenario League was a valid forum for BOTH games.

So the answer to the question is "maybe", perhaps even "probably". We just have to wait and see. Which leads us to a trickier issue:

3) "Updating the Scenario League Web Site" - There's definitely an element of the "pot calling the kettle black" here. You can't accuse us of failing to update the Web Site when a committed old-timer like Cam was driven away - at least in part - by his inability to access and update the web pages. This is not an isolated occurrence, since I (and now Dominic) experienced the same problem as webmaster of the Gamestats-hosted Clash of Civilizations site. But you know what? Let's ignore that for a moment and consider the larger question:

4) "Who is the Scenario League and what are they willing to do to ensure it's survival?" - The crux of the matter, really. We have a "leader" (Warvoid) who rarely appears on the forums and certainly hasn't done anything with the web site (whether that's because of item 3 or that he's just moved on, who knows). But we also have people like me who consider this forum their Apolyton home, and yet have never provided a single solitary tip or review for posting on the League's home page. So maybe it's put-up or shut-up time. What IS the Charter of the Scenario League? What should it do that no one else is doing? And who's willing to pitch in to make that happen? My guess is that if we can answer those questions - and more importantly, follow through on what we agree to do - then MarkG will go away happy and the Scenario League will have a new lease on life.

	06-10-2001 22:51									#14
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Before having the TSCIIS forum this one was also 'my home'. I have been here much before SL was born, and have always been very close to Blackclove and Cam. I was even asked to join the site a couple of times. Blackclove made an april's fool joke out of that a long time ago What I am trying to say is that I know the story of SL and its forum first hand from the very beginning to the end.

Based on my own experience, and at the risk of being accused of brown-nosing, I have to say that MarkG has gotten a very strong point, with which I totally concur. If the SLeague is no more this forum makes little sense and should be absorbed into Civ2(3) creation. That more people come here than to Civ2 creation is just a matter of 'custom' and as such can readily change.

You know, there was a time where SL did not exist, and the Civ2 creation forums of this and other sites thrived with brilliant posts and brilliant posters.

Now, if SLeague is given new life again (seriously I mean), the situation changes.

(Edit: spelling)

Last edited by Jay Bee on 07-10-2001 at 01:15

	06-10-2001 23:27									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee If the SLeague is no more this forum makes little sense and should be absorbed into Civ2(3) creation

Now the fact that Spain is not included as one of the default civs in Civ3 - does that perhaps remove the need for the Spanish Civ Site Forum? Is it now a tad obsolete?

But seriously JB, don't you face exactly the same question? If you buy into the theory that different forums are required for Civ2 and Civ3, you're in a similar situation. "Updating the web site" ought not to be the determining factor here, although it's certainly relevant. Don't get me wrong, the Spanish Civ Site Forum is a great place, but perhaps the advent of Civ3 means you've got "Charter" issues as well.

	06-10-2001 23:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Don't get me wrong, the Spanish Civ Site Forum is a great place, but perhaps the advent of Civ3 means you've got "Charter" issues as well.

I'm pretty sure that some people (hint: Jay Bee and others at the Spanish Forum, for sure) will still be creating and playing Civ2 scenarios long after Civ3 is released.

In other words, and though I do have some high expectations on it, Civ3 doesn't mean the end of the world for the Civ2 community, does it?

	07-10-2001 01:13									#17
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Kull,

Look again at our title: Spanish Civilization II Site Forum Civ3 is presently not an issue for me. As Fiera aptly said I and a few other will still be playing Civ2 for a long time...

Now seriously, The Spanish Civ Site forum will exist as long as the site exists and is kept reasonably updated. What would you say if I told you that there are currently 4 (four!) scenarios in progress by the regulars of that forum?. Whether the site gets into Civ3 or not, only time will tell. If I get bored with all this stuff and no one wanted to take over, then the forum should cease to exist as well.

Same rule should apply to the other HS's I think. If someone has the will to resurrect the SLeague, its forum should also go on, of course. Whether Sleeg does Civ2, Civ3 or both is beside the point in my eyes. The important thing is to keep the site alive. That's what really attracts people and makes it different imho. If not, let's all go to a generic Civ2/Civ3/whatever Creation forum, where's the difference?

You are also a veteran here. Remember the ol' good days of this forum? Compare with its present status. I'm not saying that what we see now is bad, I am just saying it is pretty different. As is now this place is no different from a generic Creation forum.

Last edited by Jay Bee on 07-10-2001 at 01:20

	07-10-2001 08:26									#18
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Personally, I think Sleague can survive jsut as its own entity, with somewhat off-topic discussion on Civ2.

Mark: I know you are looking at this thread, so hear me now : Respond to the Avatar thread!!!!

	07-10-2001 09:13									#19
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Ive come to this relatively late, but the distinction between Civ-2 creation and this forum have always been fairly clear to me. I am NOT an advanced scenario designer, and if i want tips on civ2 editing tools i go there. I come here for announcements of released scenarios, discussions of collaborative projects, requests for scens on a particular historical topic, and the like. Thanks to this forum I was able to contribute to the update of a scenario by a major designer. This is also a place to discuss history - about the only place on Apolyton where one can hold a serious discussion of history and civ, without interruption from the "go away history freaks" crowd. A function it could serve for both civ2 and civ3 simultaneously, quite easily.

So please dont take Sleague away.

LOTM

	07-10-2001 14:28									#20
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ive come to this relatively late, but the distinction between Civ-2 creation and this forum have always been fairly clear to me. I am NOT an advanced scenario designer, and if i want tips on civ2 editing tools i go there. I come here for announcements of released scenarios, discussions of collaborative projects, requests for scens on a particular historical topic, and the like. Thanks to this forum I was able to contribute to the update of a scenario by a major designer. This is also a place to discuss history - about the only place on Apolyton where one can hold a serious discussion of history and civ, without interruption from the "go away history freaks" crowd. A function it could serve for both civ2 and civ3 simultaneously, quite easily.

ok, i understand all that. but why should the discussions you describe not be in the creation forums?
SL didnt adopt the ctp series and all these discussions were happening in the ctp1/2 creation forums as well

the reason is that up until now there was the updated SL site. without it, i'm afraid we're left with three forums(civ2-creation, civ3-creation, sl) with less traffic than if it were just two(civ2-creation, civ3-creation)

	07-10-2001 14:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee What would you say if I told you that there are currently 4 (four!) scenarios in progress by the regulars of that forum?.

Depending on if you count me as a regular (atleast I used to be one before 80% of the threads where in spanish...) you could make that 5 scenarios

	07-10-2001 15:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik (atleast I used to be one before 80% of the threads where in spanish...)

Of course you are a regular of our forum Henrik, I did not know you were working on something I also "regret" the hyper-proliferation of Spanish-only threads in the forum. Ironically it is Civ3 that should be blamed for that. Since the day Civ3 was known not to include any Spanish/Hispanic civ, the number of Hispanic posters in the forum has increased pretty substantially. Go figure...


Back to the topic, I've just seen this:

quote: ACS has its own section for scen DLing so thats not really a problem as I see it. Most of the SLeague site could be absorbed into ACS without loosing much. Just my 7˘™.

See what I was talking about? Of course it's not! Isn't it a bit revealing that one of the most frequent posters on this forum misses what the SL's mission statement actually was? The SL's was never ever meant to serve as a "Scenario DLing site". People started perceiving it that way when the flow of reviews and/or tips dramatically decreased. People started sending half-baked or brand-new (i.e. unknown) scens to the site. With that material it was difficult to maintain meaningful discussions on scenario design tricks. Then the mood changed completely: scenario previews, artwork displays, PBEMs... Don't get me wrong, I enjoy all that stuff as much as anyone here, but that is not what SL is (or was) about. Without a website backing up all those conversations, they definitely belong in a generic Creation forum.


LOTM: I agree with the distinction you make. But that only happened cos all the 'advanced scenario designers' moved from Civ2 Creation to the newly-created SL forum. What I mean to say is that w/o a SL forum, the 'advanced scenario designers' and everybody else would move back to where they started. Nothing would be lost in that respect.


Bottom line: why nobody steps in to help re-vive the SLeague? That's in essence what I was trying to accomplish with all these rants

	07-10-2001 21:10									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG ok, i understand all that. but why should the discussions you describe not be in the creation forums? SL didnt adopt the ctp series and all these discussions were happening in the ctp1/2 creation forums as well the reason is that up until now there was the updated SL site. without it, i'm afraid we're left with three forums(civ2-creation, civ3-creation, sl) with less traffic than if it were just two(civ2-creation, civ3-creation)

Hmmm - i pretty much agree that 3 forums - SL, Civ2 creation, and civ3 creation would be bit too much - but how busy do you expect Civ2 creation to be after civ3 comes out? The question is not to have more than two forums, but what is the most logical way to break down the subject matter. Historical discussions, and other more general discussions will naturally cover both civ2 and civ3. as regards to scenario creation tools, its not clear yet how distinctive the civ3 tools will be from civ2 tools. So why not a civ2/3 creation forum, and an sleague forum. Yes that violates the Civ-3 general, civ-2 general, civ3 strategy, civ2 strategy etc pattern - but that pattern looks pretty arbitrary for two such related games. My column for example, which you put in civ2 general (and i understand why you did that) was also relevant to civ3 general - where are we to discuss issues relating to the civ series as a whole?

LOTM

	07-10-2001 21:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark My column for example, which you put in civ2 general (and i understand why you did that) was also relevant to civ3 general - where are we to discuss issues relating to the civ series as a whole?

Ah, I can see Mark telling you that you should do so in the Community forum.

And, come to think of it, why not a Civ-Community forum?

	07-10-2001 21:23									#25
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Give it a few months and see what happens...

I don't, however, see the benefit in sending Civ 3 scenario-makers to this forum. It would be confusing for many who would look for it in the civ 3 section of the forums, rather than hosted sites. SLeague has its place, but not with the civ 3ers

	07-10-2001 21:40									#26
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A few questions for Mark G:

There is a distinction between the SL site and the SL forum that you are not making. Why not?

The SL site, despite not having been updated for some months is still an excellent resource. Apparently there are technical reasons it cannot be updated by some people. Why not, and what are you doing about it?

Other sites, like Hodadian Awards and it's associated forum have been completely moribund for years, with no threat of closure. Why not?

We still don't know the creative potential of Civ3. Apparently we do know it won't have multiplayer capability. Why does this question need to be settled now?

	07-10-2001 21:41									#27
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Why don't we just get somebody to update the site then...?

IIRC, WV has had trouble getting into the FTP section or something like that.

	07-10-2001 22:29									#28
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the civ2 creation forum would never had as much traffic as the SL forum.

the civ2 creation looks really cold, here I have the impression that we are a community,
I just check this forum and the Spanish one, for me it would be a pitty if you close this thread.

I´m with Jay Bee and Fiera, I´ll keep playing civ2 for a while

keep this forum alive!!!!!

	08-10-2001 01:48									#29
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IIRC, WV is on a laptop and can't get into the FTP. Or something like that. Though it would be great for us to elect someoe to run the site..... and save the forum.

	08-10-2001 03:16									#30
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark but how busy do you expect Civ2 creation to be after civ3 comes out?

actually, i expect it to have to be merged with the civ2-general eventually(similar to the situation in the ctp2 forums)

quote: The question is not to have more than two forums, but what is the most logical way to break down the subject matter. Historical discussions, and other more general discussions will naturally cover both civ2 and civ3.

dont think so. usually someone start such a discussion with already an idea on which game he will make the scenario, right?

quote: as regards to scenario creation tools, its not clear yet how distinctive the civ3 tools will be from civ2 tools.

with the add stuff about culture and unique units, etc i'm afraid it will end up a mess and will certainly have the civ2 threads dissapear in a flood of civ3 threads