07-10-2001 23:56									#1
	Conventional Missiles Increase the size of your Attachments

How good are conventional missiles? I might consider using a combination of these missiles and drop pods to quicly ocuppy territory...

What is the rule? A missle destroys one unit? (no matter what unit?) How effective are these? Do you have any experince with them?

I plan to build, in one of my MP games, a battle group composed of a carrier (for Jets), a strike submarine (cruise missiles and nukes) and several transporters.

But it all depends of the punch of the conventional missile. If it's worth it or not?! (since the UN Charta won't get repelled too soon, or ever).

	08-10-2001 00:24									#2
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Hmmm...

My heart says good, my brain says bad, my liver says maybe and votes are still coming in from my spleen and kidneys...

My personal jury is still out on this one. For less than the cost of a Con Missile, you can get a Noodle that, while it has slightly less range, nevertheless is reusable and can kill more than one unit. If I had the choice, I'd spend my cash on Noodles and Choppers.

However, they can be useful - until, that is, the enemy discovers Tachyon Fields and Neutronium armour. AFAIK, that brings defence up to 16, the exact attack of the Conv Miss. If their reactor levels are equal, I think there's a 50-50 chance of either one winning. That's when missiles start going out of fashion...

Happily, there's nothing any amount of tachyon fields or even stasis generators can do against a good old PB....

	08-10-2001 00:38									#3
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If you are looking at particularly tough targets, you may want to use 1 missle per base to take out the toughest defender before emptying it with a chopper.

	08-10-2001 01:28									#4
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i agree with smac fanatic. i never use missles. too expensive when you can get a jet or chopper that is reusable. if the AI uses AAA (which they are too stupid to do) then i'll just hit them with native life or something (BTW does AAA and aerospace complexes count against locusts?).

	08-10-2001 02:39									#5
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Missiles have their place. If you find yourself behind and expecting attackers to be landing, it's nice to have one or two missiles to take out transports, landing marines, what have you. Certainly the AI has a hard time using missiles, and though they aren't generalized like choppers, they serve well when they are needed. If you play without choppers they help make your drop-attacks more flexible. I use Lefty's technique once in awhile as well.

A submarine full of missiles is extremely dangerous. Sure, it's a one-shot deal, but knowing you can empty any base in 20 squares is a nice thing.

-S-

	08-10-2001 02:51									#6
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Againt the AI, there's no need for missles. In multiplayer, there's a very narrow window when they're useful --after Orbital Spaceflight but before Neutronium Armor. Missles are useless against 1<8>1 units.

	08-10-2001 04:30									#7
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They do have the interesting property of being guarenteed to kill psi units. It is a fairly expensive way to destroy native life, but could be worthwhile, particullary against Isles, Locusts or Psi defense units.

Also a large mindworm (locust) in a base with a creche and Neural Amp can be hard to dislodge, with something like 1.5:1 odds vs Empath units, chucking a missile at it could be cheaper.

	08-10-2001 21:05									#8
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well, they definitely have their uses, especially right after you discover the technology and the others don't have it yet. you could get some awesome defenders on a transport, sail it up near the other guy's main base, take out the aerospace complex with a probe team, wail on him with a bunch of missiles to soften up his best defenders, go in with the needlejets to wipe out his remaining dudes, then walk your defenders in to occupy the base.

this would be the PERFECT strategy for me to use against domai right now, but he has the H-S algorithm. grrrrrrr.....

	08-10-2001 21:58									#9
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I think it's nice to have at least a few of them on hand. In addition to being about the biggest load (short of a PB) that you can bring until after Quantum Power, they are a good contingency fund for unpleasant surprises (like a boatload of bad dudes you're not ready for who are about to land or that great big MW appearing in your energy park), they can also do useful things like provide a police presence from a long distance away. Even if it isn't quite enough to kill a well defended unit, it will still put a big hurt on almost anything, assuming you make them elite (or at least enhanced with an AC or BC). I seem to recall them being "clean" some time ago, perhaps it was changed by an upgrade/patch of else only occurs at lower skill levels; that made them much nicer.

	08-10-2001 23:10									#10
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My opinion sez that conventional missles are too expensive. For defense in the early air-power years, I'd rather have multiple needlejets standing by to answer the threat of incoming transport ships. And I find that by the time I can afford to build enough missiles for offense later in the game, they're outclassed by better armor. Also, by that time, choppers, hands down, pack the biggest bang for the buck.

I've had the AI use missiles against me pretty effectively a few times. Against sea bases. The AI would empty the base using as many missiles as it took, and then a ship would stroll in and take the base without a fight. Seems like a pretty inefficient way of doing business - the AI infrastructure had to have been lagging due to the cost of building all those missiles. Oh well. Caught me off-guard well enough, anyway...

Last game I played as Aki-Zeta 5, and I watched as Zak built up a sizeable missile repository in a sea base within striking range of the east side of my mainland. But he didn't fire. Maybe 'cuz I didn't have any sea bases on that side of the continent for him to snag; or maybe 'cuz he didn't have any transport ships or drop troops ready to go. When I was ready to hit him, I probed the base away and captured 18 missiles in it, while simultaneously dropping 4 artillery, 14 infantry, and 4 tanks (all shard) in an empty pocket between Zoloto-Gold and University Base. The newly-acquired missiles made the invasion that much easier. This was the first time I'd used missiles in an offensive, and it felt pretty good. But I wouldn't invest in building them like that myself. In actuality, my main concern before I started the invasion was just to prevent that missile stockpile from flying at my forces and obliterating everyone after they touched down in University territory. These were all the missiles he had, and all in one place. I had contemplated a few chopper suicide runs to eliminate the stockpile at first, but then decided I could wait several more turns for a cruiser probe to arrive and see if I could buy the whole lot. If the probe action failed, I would have done the chopper deal. I'm surprised he didn't blow up the cruiser. He certainly had the firepower. Rumor has it that the AI knows where all your units are anyway, yes?

	09-10-2001 02:48									#11
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I may or not build one or two in a normal game. I usually don't. It all comes down to a cost v. benefits.

The AIs' missiles don't seem to be restricted to the one turn and fixed range specifications that my missiles labour under. Every now and then I'll find one of their missiles hanging in mid-air when my turn starts. You can bring them down with interceptors.

Where missiles are really important is in a battle odds=off game. As well, I find arty to be more important in a battle odds=off situation.

	09-10-2001 03:41									#12
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I personally love 'em....not too many, but a random handful or two can really add some kick to your overall attack force.

As has been mentioned, a "Missile Cruiser" is a pretty scary customer, capable of supporting a conventional attack from afar and/or dealing with any unexpected threats that may arise.

Also, they're great for sinking incoming enemy trannies if you don't wanna pull your chopper squadrons off of their assigned duties--and besides, the choppers will invariably take a bit of damage, meaning they'll be unavailable for a turn or two while undergoing repairs....if the attack might tie up assets you'd rather have free, best to lob a missile at the upstarts and keep your forces doing what you'd rather they be doing, instead of doing the mop up work.

In the same vein, the two missile variants (tectonic and fungal) can be devastating on an opponent who just finished some fancy, schmancy terraforming, or if you're looking to create an instant fungal highway and drive right up to some juicy interior bases, capitalizing on a certain SP you completed earlier....

The trick is to only use missiles when you can make them pay, cos they ARE pretty expensive...thus, sinking a transport loaded to the gills with baddies is a good trade....you're netting more mins than you're losing. Likewise, if you pretty well know that yonder chopper would die trying to root out that AAA garrison guarding the town, save him for later--when you could maybe take out 6-8 units--and blow the defender away or seriously weaken him with a missile first...

-=Vel=-

	09-10-2001 05:48									#13
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TKG: The AI always uses AAA in my games. It puts it on everything from destroyers to scout patrols. Once they get AAA 8-Res Sentinels I usually lighten up on the aerial bombardment and physically invade their territory. By that time I'm usually using Thought Control so Morale is sky-high and they fall like leaves in autumn.

	09-10-2001 09:19									#14
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I have found that even a fusion missle has only a 50% kill rate against an elite, silksteel fission defender in a base with Aero complex and a sensor.

Missles placed in coastal bases on alert will, I believe, automatically attack incoming transports.

I don't personally use missles for this purposes as I normally build a large navy and place it on automatic. The automatic navy very seldom lets any enemy shipping through.

Ned

	09-10-2001 22:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by bobyk464 Last game I played as Aki-Zeta 5, and I watched as Zak built up a sizeable missile repository in a sea base within striking range of the east side of my mainland. But he didn't fire. Maybe 'cuz I didn't have any sea bases on that side of the continent for him to snag; or maybe 'cuz he didn't have any transport ships or drop troops ready to go.

Good job on the probe action!

I have seen similar instances where a stacked base full of missiles was held stationary for about ten turns as a result of my chaos destroyer bombarding the sea base which contained them. I wasn't ready for a chopper clean-up so used the ship t repeatedly weaken the jets and missiles. No launch, despite a base within range. Eventually got the airforce close enough to knock it all out.

quote: Originally posted by Blake Also a large mindworm (locust) in a base with a creche and Neural Amp can be hard to dislodge, with something like 1.5:1 odds vs Empath units, chucking a missile at it could be cheaper.

Native life are particularly weak against shore bombardment. If you can, bring in a shard cruiser and soften things up. Tricky thing is getting it close enough, past the AI's alll-seeing eye


That said, I seldom use conventional missiles. Build a few for emergencies and save the real killing for re-usable and updatable choppers and needles.

	10-10-2001 05:45									#16
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I think conven. missiles have their uses.
I remember one time I was attacking a stubborn Bible-Thumper base with 3 artillery units, 2 'jets, 2 rovers, and 3 marines. The base didn't fall until I built enough missiles to make all of their units to coleslaw. Damn Believers took a while to submit to The Hive.

Anyway, I say conven. missiles are great, good first strike weapons for 'D' and great for taking out those stubborn units your opponent possess...like my example, Believer tanks that just wouldn't die!

Chairman Yang Rules! Wooo!