08-10-2001 02:11									#1
	Full headdress? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm not sure I understand why the Iroquois special unit is wearing a full feathered headdress... I don't think any Native North American culture wore full feathered headdresses into battle. I was under the impression those were ceremonial? Seems like a cheesy move by Firaxis to put that headdress on there-- I think they're doing it so the unit will look properly "Indian" without giving any thought to historical accuracy. Like we wouldn't know it's an "Indian" piece without a big feathered headdress and all the other trappings of old western movies. Disappointing lack of concern by Firaxis, which seems to have taken pains otherwise to at least provide some kind of history when presenting these civilizations.

	08-10-2001 05:52									#2
	Re: Full headdress? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Gully Foyle I'm not sure I understand why the Iroquois special unit is wearing a full feathered headdress... I don't think any Native North American culture wore full feathered headdresses into battle. I was under the impression those were ceremonial? Seems like a cheesy move by Firaxis to put that headdress on there-- I think they're doing it so the unit will look properly "Indian" without giving any thought to historical accuracy. Like we wouldn't know it's an "Indian" piece without a big feathered headdress and all the other trappings of old western movies. Disappointing lack of concern by Firaxis, which seems to have taken pains otherwise to at least provide some kind of history when presenting these civilizations.

GOOD POINT! For this we must set fire to sids house and kill his family! *

I honestly dont think it takes that much from the game, but maybe your right and they should delay the game so we can fix this unforgivable mistake

*IF YOU DIDN'T REALISE I WAS JOKING, I AM!

	08-10-2001 06:30									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Is this the most important thing left to be fixed in the game?

If so, then I think Firaxis has done a pretty good job.

	08-10-2001 06:57									#4
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You know they did a half asked job on the chinese and the iroquois. both of their names suck. Mounted Warrior and The Rider, i mean come on. If they wanted to keep the unit even slightly historcally accurate they could make the iroquois unit a better version of the calvery (fits the time period) and get rid of the headdress (like you said)

	08-10-2001 07:33									#5
	meh Got spare money?

Well, I don't think the Chinese rider is that bad, it's better than the Cho Ko Nu (ever played AOE) as far as representing the Chinese, but I agree both names suck.

I don't know though, I agree the Mounted Warrior may not be historically accurate, but I think it looks cool.

	08-10-2001 07:42									#6
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Mounted Warrior is fine, I think the headdress adds a certain "charm" to it.

	08-10-2001 07:48									#7
	Re: Re: Full headdress? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by splangy For this we must set fire to sids house and kill his family!

Quite serious here: be careful what you say, even in obvious jest...don't bring up people's personal lives. Threats can be taken seriously whether or not you meant them that way or not.

As for the topic: Hey, I agree. If you're going to do something, do it right. If you're going to make a historical unit, make it historically accurate. Especially when some steriotypes about Native American culture are not only incorrect, but also may be offensive or mean something offensive in that culture.

Sort of like how there are French restaraunts in America that have signs that say "Bites du Jour" (The Americanized way of saying "bites of the day") when really, in French, it's quite hilarious but also very offensive.

	08-10-2001 08:44									#8
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My point is that why boast historical accuracy on one hand, for some units, but then, so everybody can recognize the unit, throw something else in that's blatantly wrong (like a full ceremonial headdress for a Native American WARRIOR).

Delay the game? No. Freak out? No. Isn't this forum for discussion? Well, I just think it's stupid to be right about some things, but figure that no one will complain about something else simply because there aren't enough Iroquois citizens out there to get ticked off. I'd think that there would be plenty of complaints if the special unit for the Aztecs was a burro riding, sombrero wearing Pancho Villa, or that the French special unit was a scarf and beret clad gentleman of leisure, or the German special unit was a polka dancer in lederhosen.
See my point? They just picked something stereotypical to make the unit so that it would look like properly "Indian."
That annoys me. I'm posting it here.

	08-10-2001 09:44									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Just because it's Iroquois doesn't mean it's less important.

	08-10-2001 10:26									#10
	Re: Re: Re: Full headdress? Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by orange Quite serious here: be careful what you say, even in obvious jest...don't bring up people's personal lives. Threats can be taken seriously whether or not you meant them that way or not.

I fixed it to make it even more obvius I was just kidding....

	08-10-2001 10:30									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Gully Foyle My point is that why boast historical accuracy on one hand, for some units, but then, so everybody can recognize the unit, throw something else in that's blatantly wrong (like a full ceremonial headdress for a Native American WARRIOR). Delay the game? No. Freak out? No. Isn't this forum for discussion? Well, I just think it's stupid to be right about some things, but figure that no one will complain about something else simply because there aren't enough Iroquois citizens out there to get ticked off. I'd think that there would be plenty of complaints if the special unit for the Aztecs was a burro riding, sombrero wearing Pancho Villa, or that the French special unit was a scarf and beret clad gentleman of leisure, or the German special unit was a polka dancer in lederhosen. See my point? They just picked something stereotypical to make the unit so that it would look like properly "Indian." That annoys me. I'm posting it here.

Understandable, but you have to realise that in the end, most people uneduated about the Iroquiose (like a casual player) will like it better this way. It does add a little somthing IMO.

	08-10-2001 10:35									#12
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So...we appease an ignorant person and piss off a culture?

Yup, sounds good to me. Bring on the French "sissy" UU, and the German "nazi" UU

	08-10-2001 10:36									#13
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I have to agree with orange.

First the issue of the stereotypes. I wonder what the Iroquois would have to say (Rib? )

Secondly, if you are going to do something do it right and with style. Tenqi (or whatever it was) not "Rider" or "Mounted Warrior".

Now I hope the French units all have big noses and smell of cheese.

	08-10-2001 10:37									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's stereotyping pure and simple. Imagine if Firaxis put a bone in the Impi's hair and gave him absurdly big lips. Would you be so willing to defend that? Besides, couldn't the artist who designed these things take a frelling minute to look at some history books?

	08-10-2001 13:02									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, since a typical CIV game turn can encompass 1 to 50 or more years, think of it as generalizing the attire of the Iroquois.

Or if you don't like that option, you can post about it here at APolyton, and hope someone might actually feel sympathy for the stereotyped.

	08-10-2001 20:35									#16
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quote: think of it as generalizing the attire of the Iroquois

Didn't they say that the Iroquois represent the North American Indians in general? Is the head attire closer to any of the other North American tribes?

	08-10-2001 20:41									#17
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In my opinion, I don't think it's a big deal that the warrior is wearing a full head dress. Sure, it may not be realistic, but on the bright side, it looks cool.

I wish we would stop nit-picking about every little thing about this game.

	08-10-2001 21:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin In my opinion, I don't think it's a big deal that the warrior is wearing a full head dress. Sure, it may not be realistic, but on the bright side, it looks cool. I wish we would stop nit-picking about every little thing about this game.

AMEN to that!

In my last post I said a casual gamer would like it better this way, which he would, but that dosen't make him ignorant. If you know that one car is faster than another but the other one looks much cooler you would probably take the "cool" one. Simply becouse you cant drive fast very often but the car will always look cool. IOW the Iroquiose unit will please more people if it looks like this.

Just my $0.02

	09-10-2001 01:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Chronus Didn't they say that the Iroquois represent the North American Indians in general? Is the head attire closer to any of the other North American tribes?

no. More steriotypes

quote: In my last post I said a casual gamer would like it better this way, which he would, but that dosen't make him ignorant. If you know that one car is faster than another but the other one looks much cooler you would probably take the "cool" one. Simply becouse you cant drive fast very often but the car will always look cool. IOW the Iroquiose unit will please more people if it looks like this.

Yes, wonderful analogy. It all makes sense now

	09-10-2001 01:53									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Its a good thing that Firaxis now finally have moved all game-editing possibilities into standalone editors, with real point-and-click interfaces. The SMAC planetary-pack faction-editor, is an example of this approach. Hopefully, we will see even more powerful & more extended editors in Civ-3.
There seems to be no other way to alert most Civ-customers in understanding how flexible & tweakable this game really is. However, thanks to above approach nobody can possibly miss it. Its much better then hiding it in some obscure game-map txt-files.

Last edited by Ralf on 09-10-2001 at 02:16

	09-10-2001 02:57									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by orange So...we appease an ignorant person and piss off a culture? Yup, sounds good to me. Bring on the French "sissy" UU, and the German "nazi" UU

You have it all wrong orange. The French get the UU 'Frogeater'; the Italians get the 'Sissy', but I think it is called 'Coward'. Very low attack and defense, but when attacked, boy can it run

	09-10-2001 02:57									#22
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I have so much to learn from you PH

	09-10-2001 03:08									#23
	Remove this text

Oh the English will have a 'pompous arse' special unit who will endlessly stand there and tell boring anecdotes about how great the empire is and how they are the greatest people on the planet. Basically, if you stand your unit next to a 'pompous arse' for too long, it will slip into an extremely deep sleep through boredom and die

	09-10-2001 03:22									#24
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quote: ...'pompous arse'...

That's fast becoming a better UU for the Americans, I'm afraid