08-10-2001 04:05									#1
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I have some news about the Mac version of Civilization III.

I emailed the feedback address at Westlake Interactive, the company porting the game to Mac, asking whether or not the game would be in ‘Classic’ (native to Mac OS 9 only, though playable through a compatibility layer in Apple’s new Mac OS X) or in ‘Carbon’ (native to Mac OS X, enabling it to take advantage of modern OS features such as protected memory, while still normally playable within Mac OS 9); in effect, whether it was native to the old Mac OS 9 or the new Mac OS X. This is the response I got, and very quickly too (within five minutes on a Sunday!):

“Chances are it will be natively Carbon.”
-Suellen Adams, Business Coordinator, Westlake Interactive, Inc.”

Meaning it will be native to Mac OS X, though (probably) still playable in Mac OS 9.

S.

	08-10-2001 05:03									#2
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THE DAMN THING BETTER RUN ON 8.6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


(in case it doesn't, can anyone tell me how i could get os 9 for free?)

	08-10-2001 05:28									#3
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I don't think you can get OS 9 free but I'm sure you can get a really cheap 8.6>9 upgrade from Apple ( http://www.apple.com ). I sincerely doubt that you'll need it however. I think the minimum Mac OS will be between 8.0 and 8.5. I have OS 9.1, but since I have a Windows 98 emulator, I'll be playing the game this November

	08-10-2001 07:04									#4
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut I don't think you can get OS 9 free but I'm sure you can get a really cheap 8.6>9 upgrade from Apple ( http://www.apple.com ). I sincerely doubt that you'll need it however. I think the minimum Mac OS will be between 8.0 and 8.5. I have OS 9.1, but since I have a Windows 98 emulator, I'll be playing the game this November

although i do not agree with your use of an emulator and do not appreciate your taunting i am atleast glad the funds for your computer went to the right people (apple)

i agree about the os, we've discussed in the mac forum that surely it will run on 8.6 (as damn near all games or anything else aimed at a wide mac audience, seeing how most of us use 8.6)but this new news makes me wonder

and i kinda doubt i can os9 cheap, it was like 100+$ when it came out but maybe with osX out i could get it cheap. i'd still rather not go through the trouble

	08-10-2001 07:11									#5
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quote: Originally posted by d_dudy and i kinda doubt i can os9 cheap, it was like 100+$ when it came out but maybe with osX out i could get it cheap. i'd still rather not go through the trouble

I remember when OS9 came out, OS8 was really cheap, and an upgrade from a fairly recent version of OS7 was even cheaper. That's the wonderful thing about the computer industry: it's always really cheap to stay 1 step behind everybody else.

	08-10-2001 07:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut I remember when OS9 came out, OS8 was really cheap, and an upgrade from a fairly recent version of OS7 was even cheaper. That's the wonderful thing about the computer industry: it's always really cheap to stay 1 step behind everybody else.

yeah, but i just don't wanna change everything over. some of my programs might not work and the other people using this computer will ***** about everything being differant when they don't understand it now

	08-10-2001 07:25									#7
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quote: Originally posted by d_dudy yeah, but i just don't wanna change everything over. some of my programs might not work and the other people using this computer will ***** about everything being differant when they don't understand it now

When I got OS9, I didn't have any problems with my old apps not working. It's really not that much different from OS8. There are a few interface touch-ups and a new version of Sherlock, increased Unicode support, etc. but I'm really not sure why they didn't call it OS8.7 to be honest. Any user of OS8 comes quickly literate in the new OS. I'm kind of disheartened to see the old "Label" menu has been demoted to a mere submenu of "File" though. All in all, it's probably worth the upgrade if you're going to need it to run a program but not for much else.

	08-10-2001 22:39									#8
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Actually, OS9 did change quite a bit. Its just that most of the changes were hidden where most people wouldn't notice them. Namely in all that underlying code base that makes it work.

One area I happen to know changed massively is the networking code. When OS9 came out I was working in TS for a company that made (among other things) some home networking products that included one USB-based model that was Mac and PC compatible. When it was built, our engineers only had OS8.x to play with for Mac, and based it on that. It worked just fine with 8.x. The changes in the underlying code of OS9's networking were so big that it just plain would not work in OS9 without massive changes on our part.

Apple is pretty good about their revision numbers for the OS. When they released OS9, they picked that number for a reason. It really was a major change to them. It just wasn't obviously so to everyone else.


As for Civ3 Mac being Carbon and not Classic.... I don't blame Westlake in the least. Apple has made it very clear that this is the direction they are taking their OS. Westlake, Firaxis, and most importantly Infogrames would most likely want this game Mac compatible for as long as possible. Programming it in Carbon insures that compatiblity.

	09-10-2001 01:32									#9
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I was hoping for a Cocoa based port of Civ 3, but that was probably a pipe dream from the start. Oh well, a Carbon version is good enough for me. OS 10.1 is so great, it has totally made up for the months I spent with the crappy OS 10. No more rebooting into 9 for me (except to print....damn pre-USB G3 ).

Not that you guys care, but I would seriously recommend upgrading from 8.6 to 9. I got it with X in the spring and it really is a worthwhile upgrade. The language kits alone are worth the upgrade, if you want to write in Japanese or something. Maybe that's just me. But the overall system performance is better too, and the improved support for the Carbon Lib will probably help out when running a Carbonized Civ 3.

	09-10-2001 02:17									#10
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markos even made it a news item

damn, i guess i reallly will have to upgrade. anyone now how much this will cost?

	09-10-2001 03:26									#11
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quote: Originally posted by d_dudy THE DAMN THING BETTER RUN ON 8.6!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi there,

Brad Oliver here, programmer for Westlake on the Civ3 port, along with John Butler.

The game will be carbon, and will definitely run on MacOS 8.6 (e.g. CarbonLib 1.2.5) and up at a minimum. I have no idea where the MacOS 9+ info came from - that's totally wrong. There's a chance the minimum system requirements will drop to 8.1 (e.g. CarbonLib 1.0.4), but it's a bit too early in development to guarantee that.

I tried to send a clarifying e-mail to markg@apolyton.net just now, but it bounced with a "relaying denied" message.

Brad

	09-10-2001 03:56									#12
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bradman, i know you guys are still pretty early in the devlopment process, but do you have a rough idea of what the minimum system requirements will be? i have a G3 beige/266, which isn't that old but has seemed to be getting closer to obsolesence each day......

oh and best of luck on the porting process, all of us Mac users are counting on you guys for this game

	09-10-2001 04:34									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten bradman, i know you guys are still pretty early in the devlopment process, but do you have a rough idea of what the minimum system requirements will be? i have a G3 beige/266, which isn't that old but has seemed to be getting closer to obsolesence each day......

It'll be similar to the PC specs. I should point out that it appears the PC version uses software OpenGL for some stuff, so that may factor into the Mac port. Any firm specs would be guesswork on my part as I haven't even tried to run it on a low-end Mac yet, and we're not to the point where we're looking to optimize for RAM or speed yet either.

Brad

	09-10-2001 05:54									#14
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Bradman:

First of all, you should ask Markos for an "official" title (say "Westlake Civ3 Programmer"). It's one of the perks offered to those in officialdom who participate in the discussions at Apolyton.

Secondly, I'd be more than happy if Civ III could run efficiently on an 8.5.1 333mhz 160 RAM iMac. If not ... hmm, well, I'll get the game no matter what. I might just say the hell with it all and sacrifice my savings to buy the latest iMac carrying OS10.1 (or higher, since I don't plan on doing that unless I have to). I've already had to dig into the guts of my machine to upgrade the memory to 160 and didn't like that too much. Hmm ... would there be anyplace I could buy or DL OS9x?

Anyway, welcome to Apolyton, Bradman. Hope to see you around from time to time!

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 07:42									#15
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quote: Originally posted by bradman Hi there, Brad Oliver here, programmer for Westlake on the Civ3 port, along with John Butler. The game will be carbon, and will definitely run on MacOS 8.6 (e.g. CarbonLib 1.2.5) and up at a minimum. I have no idea where the MacOS 9+ info came from - that's totally wrong. There's a chance the minimum system requirements will drop to 8.1 (e.g. CarbonLib 1.0.4), but it's a bit too early in development to guarantee that. I tried to send a clarifying e-mail to markg@apolyton.net just now, but it bounced with a "relaying denied" message. Brad

1st, i'd like to apolagize for the way i said that (this is the first instance in wich a programmer has responded to a mac question here so i thought no one but fellow maccers was reading)
2nd, i'd like to welcome you here and i hope you get an official title soon
3rd, thanks! everyone was telling me i'd have to upgrade and i believed it! i'm really relieved!

well, hope to see more of your posts



i better go over to wiggy's thread and fix what i said

	09-10-2001 07:56									#16
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If it doesn't run on 8.5 then I buy a PC.

Thats just the way I feel.8.1 would be a wise decision I beleive.

wise for me anyhow

	09-10-2001 08:11									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Smash If it doesn't run on 8.5 then I buy a PC. Thats just the way I feel.8.1 would be a wise decision I beleive. wise for me anyhow

what's the big damn differance between 8.5 and 8.6 for you? i don't get it, everyone uses 8.6+ now

	09-10-2001 08:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Smash If it doesn't run on 8.5 then I buy a PC. Thats just the way I feel.8.1 would be a wise decision I beleive. wise for me anyhow

Why a PC? I know if I have to, I'll use Civ III as an excuse to get a new computer, but it would be a Macintosh. Problem is, there are only three places in my entire state that officially support Macs (i.e. licensed by Apple). **sigh** Quality over quantity ...

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 08:21									#19
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why a pc????

cuz I can get 3 times the machine for half the price.Not to mention availability of stuff to run on it.

	09-10-2001 13:06									#20
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Bradman - thanks alot for your clarification regarding Mac OS 8.6, as I know there are alot of people who must have freaked out when it was said that it would only run on OS9 or above. I don't know how that got out there either, as when I emailed Suellen Adams she didn't say anything of the kind to me.

Also one other question, if you are able to respond, even if only vaguely: we're all hearing 'February 2002' as the Mac Civ3 release date; that seems to be the common wisdom. Are you able to at all say if that is correct, or if we will be lucky and get it earlier, or... ???

Thanks alot.

S.

	09-10-2001 18:28									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Smash If it doesn't run on 8.5 then I buy a PC.

8.6 is a free update to 8.5, and more importantly, 8.6 allows us to require CarbonLib 1.2.5 which means we can use CarbonEvents, which make the app perform much better under 10 with no performance hits under 8/9.

If you want to buy a PC instead of installing a free upgrade, then by all means go for it.

Brad

	09-10-2001 18:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Pods Also one other question, if you are able to respond, even if only vaguely: we're all hearing 'February 2002' as the Mac Civ3 release date; that seems to be the common wisdom. Are you able to at all say if that is correct, or if we will be lucky and get it earlier, or... ???

Typically, we set aside a month for first playable, a month for alpha, a month for beta and a month for "misc". We're almost to first playable now, so your guess at a GM date is as good as mine, based on that. It could go quicker if it stays as close, code-wise, to SMAC as it has. It could go longer if we run into a ton of bugs during beta, which would not be unusual for a game of this complexity.

So to answer your question, it's too early to say with any accuracy when it'll go GM.

Brad

	09-10-2001 21:56									#23
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Although I have no idea of how scenarios will work, how mp will work (if it is in this version) I would like to know if those are fully compatable between the pc and mac version.

Will I still be able to make scenarios for PC users to play, will I be able to play scenarios made with the PC version?

And if MP is in (or when the patch is released) will I be able to play pbems/normal tcp/ip multiplayer games against PC players?

Thanks for all the answers so far

	09-10-2001 21:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Smash why a pc???? cuz I can get 3 times the machine for half the price.Not to mention availability of stuff to run on it.

both computers have their very good uses...if your opinion slants toward a PC, then buy one, but don't argue with anyone about it.

and as brad said, get yourself 8.6, probably from www.apple.com. not a huge change from the looks of things, but gaming evidently takes a hit without it installed.

or just buy OS9 or X.1. running iTunes is the coolest that can't be done on a sub 9.0 system, and 10.1 is probably the best OS I've ever used, (PC or otherwise) especially in terms of stability. at $99 and with some hefty system reqs, you should probably wait it out until later, but always be on the lookout for a price cut. it's really worth it.

	09-10-2001 23:01									#25
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well if that is it..then pc here I come.There is no #$%^ing way I am going to go thru and update everything for 8.6.Browser plug ins alone would take hours.

	09-10-2001 23:34									#26
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Smash, et al.:

Stupid question here: If one upgrades their OS, does one have to reinstall all the software that didn't come w/the machine (i.e. Civ II, MS Word '98)? The question is brought up because you mentioned something about hours needed to simply upgrade browser plug-ins if you went to 8.6.

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 23:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Smash well if that is it..then pc here I come.There is no #$%^ing way I am going to go thru and update everything for 8.6.Browser plug ins alone would take hours.

Browser plugins taking hours? Are we talking about the same MacOS 8.6? I didn't have to update any browser plugins for 8.6, and I can't fathom why you would have to.

Anyway, if you want to move to the PC based on preliminary specs from an unfinished Mac port, then I certainly won't try to talk you out of that. You've obviously been giving it consideration long before this, and it seems you'll be much happier switching, so I sincerely wish you the best in your migration.

Brad

	09-10-2001 23:45									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Henrik Will I still be able to make scenarios for PC users to play, will I be able to play scenarios made with the PC version? And if MP is in (or when the patch is released) will I be able to play pbems/normal tcp/ip multiplayer games against PC players?

The scenarios should be cross-platform. If not, I would classify that as a bug. PBEM should be cross-platform too, as with SMAC.

As for MP, let's wait and see what happens with the PC version. As it stands right now, it's impossible because the PC version uses DirectPlay. That may change, and if it does, then MP games could be compatible. It's my fondest wish that they'll move away from DirectPlay.

Brad

	10-10-2001 00:46									#29
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quote: ell if that is it..then pc here I come.There is no #$%^ing way I am going to go thru and update everything for 8.6.Browser plug ins alone would take hours.

the switch to a PC, plugging it in and getting everything set up, would take about ten times as long. I don't see where you got your info from either, as everything remained the same on my system post upgrade. brad's right, though - your logic is a bit on the ridiculous side, making rash statements about reqs that are far from final.

As for MP, that's too bad. I'm not familiar with the ups and downs of Directplay, but I don't understand why a more compatable system couldn't be used, as found in several other games released years ago. Since most of my friends own macs, and SP eats up the majority of my time, this personally isn't a big deal, but I can see where the problem would come in for others.