09-10-2001 07:07									#1
	Plans for organized expansion pack wishlist after release. (PLEASE READ) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have a few plans for what I will do after the release (actually, if someone who is not getting the game or is not getting the game because of localized versions reasons would rather do this, that would be appreciated ) is make a 'poll' similar to Locutus' poll about the expansion pack civs, where you wil have a certain number of expendable 'points' you can assign to each suggestion. It would be open to any suggestions that people would want in an expansion pack, and the top ten options will make it into the formal forum 'poll,' which will be for what you MOST want in an expansion pack. Results of both polls will be reported to firaxis.

Should I start the first poll now?
lets take a vote

	09-10-2001 07:22									#2
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dainbramaged13

have you ever seen the EC3 list? i think we should do something like that, it's in the ideas forum check it out there

but i DO NOT think that you should start the first poll now
we need time to play the game, to see what features are in the game, what features didn't make the cut, what works, and what needs improvement

so i suggest that we wait till at the very least two weeks after civ3 actually hits retail

i am all for making new suggestions, but i think that we are blind right now to what areas need improvement, and we won't get an idea until we have actually played the game some

	09-10-2001 14:44									#3
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I support korn469. Let people play it and than come back with what they would like to see in EP.

	09-10-2001 14:56									#4
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Or even better, give it 6 months and then start the polling. This way it will all be more relevant, and maybe Firaxis will even take a peep.

	09-10-2001 17:37									#5
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Why not take suggestions now? What would it hurt?

I'd like a WWII senario, complete with a bunch of new and different 3D rendered units.

I'm dreaming... I know, but hey... I'm allowed.

	09-10-2001 20:47									#6
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I agree for waiting and playing the game, surely more than 2 weeks after release - we must play several campaigns to be sure of what is needed to upgrade. But not too long though ( 6 months is too much!), perhaps sometimes near Christmas. Anyway the urgent short-term lists should be about the minor bugs to be patched.

I don't know if some "moderators to be" are organizing some threads where hardcore addicts will compare their first games ( each with different starting settings ).

	09-10-2001 20:53									#7
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An expansion pack is not an upgrade. It doesn't ad new features, but rather, it adds simple things like new units, different senarios, etc, so I don't think it's too soon. I don't think it ever is.

	10-10-2001 00:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 dainbramaged13 have you ever seen the EC3 list? i think we should do something like that, it's in the ideas forum check it out there

yeah i did read over it once, but wed never have time to do something like that! that took a long time. We expect the expansion pack to come out in 6 months, and if they are not already working on it, they will start when civ3 hits stores

quote: but i DO NOT think that you should start the first poll now we need time to play the game, to see what features are in the game, what features didn't make the cut, what works, and what needs improvement so i suggest that we wait till at the very least two weeks after civ3 actually hits retail

one of the reasons the EC3 list affected civ3 so much is because it came out so early and had time to circle the firaxis office and actually be considered. again, think about the time constraints.

quote: i am all for making new suggestions, but i think that we are blind right now to what areas need improvement, and we won't get an idea until we have actually played the game some

i agree, but we should at least start the poll when the game comes out.

quote: I'd like a WWII senario, complete with a bunch of new and different 3D rendered units.

scens = 12 shipped with game = i expect ww2 is one of them. i guess specialized 3-d units would be nice, but hey, it'd take a lot of time, and for most people, its fine the way it is.

	10-10-2001 01:20									#9
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quote: An expansion pack is not an upgrade. It doesn't ad new features, but rather, it adds simple things like new units, different senarios, etc, so I don't think it's too soon. I don't think it ever is.

i think just the opposite of you Jason, i will not buy a civ3 expansion if it is only new scenarios...for me there has to be something new in the expansion before i will spend my money on it, i thought Alien Crossfire was a good expansion (which didn't include any scenarios), and i hope the Civ3 expansion goes that route

quote: yeah i did read over it once, but wed never have time to do something like that! that took a long time. We expect the expansion pack to come out in 6 months, and if they are not already working on it, they will start when civ3 hits stores

quote: one of the reasons the EC3 list affected civ3 so much is because it came out so early and had time to circle the firaxis office and actually be considered. again, think about the time constraints.

actually the EC3 list didn't get to firaxis until Brian had left and civ was almost a year into development, but you are right about getting any expansion wishlist to them in time for firaxis to actually act on it

though i think that we could organize and and conduct an EC3X list in a month and a half at tops, 3-4 weeks to collect and refine ideas, and 2-3 weeks to vote on them and to organize them into a list

though if you do intend to launch an EC3X list as soon as the game comes out you need to start planning it now...i will offer any assistance that i can

here is a link

The Essential Civ 3 Guidelines

i think that it could done similarly to that, except get rid of fixes and new ideas and just have one thread in which people post their ideas in...get rid of seconding and just have an idea nomination and discussion phase and a voting phase...all of this can be done and sent to firaxis in less than two months after the game comes out...however you do also want to remember that some places won't get civ3 till maybe a month or two after it comes out in the US, so these people while they will have the chance to participate will be slightly disadvantaged

also you want people to combine similar ideas as soon as possible, otherwise problems will arise, trust me i speak from experiance

in the end we sent all of the ideas and the number of votes they got to firaxis but we did prominantly point out the top ten ideas

	10-10-2001 02:40									#10
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I tell ya what, I know it's really early for a wish list, but something that popped into my head is that a lot of people who create mods and scenarios might have some problems rendering 3d units, so perhaps a really easy 3d unit rendering program, or at least a whole bunch of extra 3d "clip art units" could be added.

Then the obvious- more civs, scenarios, maps, etc.

Add a case of beer, a carton of smokes, and some fake doctor passes for work/ school and *BAM* that's an expantion pack.

	10-10-2001 02:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by cassembler I tell ya what, I know it's really early for a wish list, but something that popped into my head is that a lot of people who create mods and scenarios might have some problems rendering 3d units, so perhaps a really easy 3d unit rendering program, or at least a whole bunch of extra 3d "clip art units" could be added.

I could see them doing the clip art units, but I have yet to see a free 3d graphics program. Most of these are very, very pricey.

	10-10-2001 04:43									#12
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dainbramaged13

a few other points

i still believe that we shouldn't start any official expansion pack wish list until at least two weeks after civ3 comes out and here is why

*most people will take a few days to actually get the game
*during the first few weeks there will be forum overload with such thing as "i finally got civ3!," "civ3 is awsome!," "how do u do...," "what's your civ3 strategy so far?" this will distract from any expansion pack idea list
*rushing the list through will hurt the quality of the list
*most people will need to play at least a few games before they can get a feel for civ3
*some people might suggest ideas that are already present in the game
*firaxis most likely will not start on the expansion pack as soon as civ3 ships, they will probably rest some, do some bug fixes, then look at the sells number then if infogrames gives them the go ahead then they will start on the expansion

but if we start we list around the middle of november we can still have a new wishlist to firaxis by the first of the year, and this list will still be early enough to have an impact on the expansion pack...like we found out in the EC3 list, our ideas probably won't make it into the game exctly as we wrote them down, but they have seemed to make it in many cases

also on the technical end

*each person can suggest two ideas for the list
*voting will only start after the nomination and discussion period is over
*i suggest that in the voting stage each person gets a total of 20 votes, they can split their votes anyway they choose except that they cannot give any single idea more than five votes, and they must in exact numbers (1.5, 0.2, 4.8 etc is not allowed!); note a person could use less than 20 votes if they wanted but nothing more than 20
*also each person gets one negative vote, so if their is an idea they dislike they can cast a -1 for that idea in addition to the 20 votes they cast for ideas they liked
*ideas should be less than 100 words ideally, and nothing over 300 words should be accepted
*all attempts should be made to combine similar ideas

how does that sound?

	10-10-2001 05:04									#13
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The rules part of that sound really organized korn, good work.

	10-10-2001 06:40									#14
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I'm all for it...
The thought of actually getting some of what I want to see in an expantion is worth the rules...

I usually don't like rules...

	10-10-2001 06:52									#15
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Oh yeah, one more thing, I think maybe only 1 negative point is kinda small... maybe 5? That way, we don't have to pick merely one thing we like less than the other 9, but have an opportunity to vote against several, giving a more acurate reflection of our desires.

An example vote with this option:

(options are A-J)

the vote could be:
+5 : b
+3 : c
+2 : e
+5 :g
+5 : j

-3 : a
-1 : f
-1 : h

Whacha thank?
(Read aloud in Texan for best effect)

	10-10-2001 06:59									#16
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ok korn, everything, agreed. I will start the thread whenever the 'i got civ3!' threads start to dies down, and people start to come to the forums for real, between a week-2 weeks after release. I will probly take all of your rules, maybe add a few, changea a couple, but thanks for the suggestions!

cassembler, i plan on actually having not so many point alloctable either 5 or 10 so each option you vote for actualyl MEANS something to you instead of having one or two that you care about and then 20 others that mean ****. That was one of the problems with Locutus' poll.

	10-10-2001 10:51									#17
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cassembler

the reason their should only be one negative point is because if any of the ideas get in the game then it is a victory for the fans, however there have been a few of the ideas that have been real lightning rods, with some people loving those ideas more than anything, and others absolutely hating them, so it would be nice to have an opertunity to show a thumbs down for an idea without sparking a war that would lead to hurt feelings, plus the one persons disapproval shouldn't be able to cancle out an idea

dainbramaged13

i will help you in this as much as i can, no one person can do this alone, remember this about about building community and generating lively discussion about each idea presented...if the idea doesn't change any from when it gets presented then something has went wrong in the process

also about the numbers of votes each person can allocate, you need to realize that their is a problem with having too few votes, the problem is this

lets say i absolutely love one idea, think two others are great and then i like four other ideas, if i only had five or ten points it would be hard to represent that i liked one idea better than the others but still think that they should get in

in my opinion 10 votes is the fewest possible that could give a person the flexability to represent their feelings, and then it is probably too low, 15 or 20 are better, 25 being the highest number i would consider, though i do agree that 160 points is too many

a few other things you should be aware of

*first you need to let people know that you are doing this
*state all rules up front and make them as clear as possible
*all dates should also be stated when you begin
*try to stick to the schedule unless something unexpected comes up
*be fair and impartial at all times
*encourage discussion at all times
*expect for things to go wrong
*if you must change rules do it openly and inform people about it

that is about all of the advice i can give