09-10-2001 15:18									#1
	A Clockwork Lemon Remove this text

Been thinking about a challenge with a similar set-up to the DT challenge series: 2 players, large islands, no AI etc. However the goals for each player would be unknown to the other & would be different and each player would have a set of specific tasks/prohibitions. These would not necessarily make sense.

ie. You may not plant forests/you may only plant forests.
You may not build SP's that start with the first 8 letters of the alphabet.
You must destroy a base every 50 turns.
You may not use any advanced SE choices
You may not rush any units
or something like that. (maybe I should quit now and go to bed....)

One players goal could be to: build 13 bases, construct a sensor on every land tile, capture 3 MW's, build a chopper colony pod and found a base on their opponant's island that grows to size 3.

Player two's goal could be to: construct a network node, energy bank and command centre in every base, to build 11 seaformers which have been placed on full automatic, to mindprobe 3 of their opponants bases, and have control of the neural amplifier.

As each condition has been met it the save could be sent to the CMN for verification.

{Well it seemed like a good idea at the time!}

	09-10-2001 15:51									#2
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Does this mark the end of Alpha Centauri's golden age?

But really, this isn't a bad idea- fun stuff

	09-10-2001 15:58									#3
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Sounds bizzare, I like it

	09-10-2001 16:30									#4
	Got spare money?

Finally the toy doesn't provide anymore fun although one still loves it too much. What to do? Inventing new ways to play with it!
Is this madness or just childish?


ohh and count me in

	09-10-2001 16:47									#5
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Hobbes - for goodness' sake, go to bed

I like the concept though - I'm just a bit concerned about the interests of balance. If the two players' goals are different, that's going to create all sorts of problems...

For instance, in your above example, it can be argued that player 1's goal is far, far easier than player 2's. Sensor on every land tile? No problemo - hordes of formers along with forest and forget will do the trick. Chopper CP? Not a problem either - build the PTS and voila! - your base is size 3. (Where did you get that idea from, I wonder? ) 3 mind worms? Go green, and go pod popping at sea.

If the list of goals were verified as balanced by a neutral CMN....well, that would certainly solve that little niggle. Overall, a great concept - if a little bizarre

	09-10-2001 23:39									#6
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Something of a variant Vel had a couple of years ago, based loosely on the Diplomacy game. Each faction ahd a single objective, unknown to the others, to win: (e.g. the Gaians must capture the base that the Hive builds the Command Nexus in - no other faction can build the CN; the Uni must build the first locust; Morgan builds a size 15 base, but cant grow with colony pod "builds" in that base, etc etc)

A game did get started, but only lasted some 15 turns or so before a defection - and in those early days we weren't CMN'ing it with saved passwords or anything.

While you can't use the scenario editor to set different general objectives/winning conditions for different factions, you can tweak it so that a faction's particular base becomes an objective to capture, or a specific unit. But these would be objectives for all other factions (although you could set say, three to defend objective and 3 to attack - or set it up as Multiplay where each faction has a base - not necessarily the HQ - that's an objective for the others to get)

Also, of course, you couldn't put off-limits every SP starting with a to h, but you could individually disable them as "destroyed" through the editor, thus achieving the same purpose.

G.

	10-10-2001 00:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by H0bbes You may not build SP's that start with the first 8 letters of the alphabet

well they all start with T anyway

quote: Originally posted by H0bbes Player two's goal could be to: construct a network node, energy bank and command centre in every base, to build 11 seaformers which have been placed on full automatic, to mindprobe 3 of their opponants bases, and have control of the neural amplifier.

could you just be the UoP, and build the command nexus and Planetary energy grid?

what about each player has to win by different means? example yang can only win economic and gaia can only win by conquest. or the believers can only transcend. this way would need to have AI though, but you wouldn't need to do too much scenario editing other than the map. all you have to do is pull a victory out of a hat and say: "ok your victory is diplomatic, yours is conquest etc"

good idea? doesnt really matter if it isn't i just thought it up writing this post...

	10-10-2001 08:36									#8
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quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 Finally the toy doesn't provide anymore fun although one still loves it too much. What to do? Inventing new ways to play with it!

You don't even know all the kewl new stuff I did with my Transformers after I turned 12 years old. Oh those were the days! I could make two new transformers/vehicles/space stations with the parts I extracted. :sigh:

	10-10-2001 11:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba You don't even know all the kewl new stuff I did with my Transformers after I turned 12 years old. Oh those were the days! I could make two new transformers/vehicles/space stations with the parts I extracted. :sigh:

All my Star wars action figures turned into tennisplayers (13-15), imagined Luke as a young Edberg or Han Solo Mats Wilander and Darth Vader was Ivan Lendle

	10-10-2001 16:20									#10
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I like it - it's like a ridiculously silly version of Risk! You'd have to ensure neutral conditions though - maybe a points value scheme is in order?

I like Vel's version a lot though. If I had more time, I'd be quite willing to play it.

	10-10-2001 21:39									#11
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Ahhh yes! I remember that game! A pity she died off before ever really getting started! Good concept, and one I would love to see put in practice....I think it would make for some staggering game play!

What I had done in the variant that Brother Googlie outlined was make a bunch of index cards for each faction, and on those cards, wrote down missions that sorta "fit" with that faction's belief system....sometimes, of course, the stated missions fit with an "extreme version" of that faction, but they were all more or less aligned. Some particular examples I remember are below:

Peace Keepers: Your goal is to ensure that all factions remain in the game until the very end. You win by default if no one has transcended by the normal game's end, and all factions are still around.

Gaian (season of the Witch): Your goal is to utterly eradicate the Believing faction, and any other faction that uses a PB on Chiron.

Morgan: You win by default if, at any point you have 750,000 EC banked.

Stuff like that.

So...by design, some objectives put players in opposition with each other (in this case, the PK/Gaians would almost certainly have to come to blows as they each went about satisfying their victory conditions).

Also, each time a successful probe action is conducted against a faction, the CN gives some clue to that player as to what the probed faction's "secret mission" is....in this way, as the game grinds on, players become more and more aware of what everyone is trying to accomplish, and the game gets more and more tense.

Also, it would lead to some really radical strategies sometimes (I could see the Morganite player being the ultimate turtle, hoarding his cash and stocking 5-6 probes in every base to prevent anyone from finding out his secret victory condition).

And of course, you don't have to win via your secret victory condition....you've also got to worry about someone transcending and stealing the game from you....

-=Vel=-

	10-10-2001 23:05									#12
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quote: Also, of course, you couldn't put off-limits every SP starting with a to h, but you could individually disable them as "destroyed" through the editor, thus achieving the same purpose. - Googlie

Actually you could set their prerequisite tech to Disable in the alpha.txt easily...just thought I'd point it out.

quote: Also, each time a successful probe action is conducted against a faction, the CN gives some clue to that player as to what the probed faction's "secret mission" is....in this way, as the game grinds on, players become more and more aware of what everyone is trying to accomplish, and the game gets more and more tense. - Vel

It would be fairly simple to set the descriptions for 7 'user-techs' to actually say the objectives for the 7 factions. You then modify the 7 factions to start with that tech and otherwise, it has no prerequisite...noone can research it. Thus, you can steal the objectives from another faction, or perhaps trade your own for a tech if you are desparate. The AI would not handle it well, trading it off, but then again, there wouldn't be an AI in this kind of game I don't imagine..or if there were, they wouldn't have secret objectives.

-S-

	11-10-2001 02:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Peace Keepers: Your goal is to ensure that all factions remain in the game until the very end. You win by default if no one has transcended by the normal game's end, and all factions are still around.

That must have been a real bar-steward to win. You have to keep all players in the game, but stop anyone from transcending? (Except presumably yourslef). That sounds like a tough call.

quote: It would be fairly simple to set the descriptions for 7 'user-techs' to actually say the objectives for the 7 factions. You then modify the 7 factions to start with that tech and otherwise, it has no prerequisite...noone can research it. Thus, you can steal the objectives from another faction, or perhaps trade your own for a tech if you are desparate.

I like this - but as well as being able to steal another faction's objective (and note - it would happen at random each time you probed), there would also be a chance you could probe faction B's objective from faction A if faction A had already got it by some means. This may not be desirable, but it couldn't be helped, unfortunately.

	11-10-2001 03:07									#14
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Chowlett: Yeppers! That was the Caddy of all missions....a very fine balancing act....o'course, asking a human Gaian player with the Morale hit to utterly toast a good human Believer....OUCH!

And yes! I love the idea of assigning "secret missions" to certain techs! That would make for a MOST interesting dilemma! Do you research the next generation of weapons, or try and figure out what the opposition is really up to?

And I also kinna like the idea of stealing "state secrets" for faction A from faction B....adds an interesting twist to things!

One intriguing thing then, would be to have a really abbreviated tech tree, lumping several advances into a few key techs, and creating a goodish number of "empty" techs at various points in the tree.

These empty techs could have all manner of hints and clues (which would start out pretty vague on low level techs, and get increasingly specific with higher level techs), as to what various members of the opposition were up to.

Cool

-=Vel=-

	11-10-2001 03:59									#15
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quote: there would also be a chance you could probe faction B's objective from faction A if faction A had already got it by some means. This may not be desirable, but it couldn't be helped, unfortunately.

True, but this could be considered a 'feature' hehe . I was thinking along the lines of say
#78 (was User Tech 01) Morganic Planning Dossier: TOP SECRET!
(no effects, no stats, no prerequisite..ie = disable)

Techshorts.txt #78: Morganic Planning Dossier: Take control of central Volcanic Islands at all Costs!

Techlongs.txt #78: In the early years of colonization it was determined by forward intelligence that the central Volcanic isles harbored underground energy resources of nearly infinite proportions. Morgan Strategists quickly devised a plan by which capture of these islands or submission of native inhabitants would yeild them such an economic edge that they could simply buy off the other governments of Chiron. Your mission is to take and HOLD these islands for 15 years, during which time our deep-core borehole operations will yeild the energy necessary for a 'hostile takeover' of the planet. You must have 4 boreholes on these islands to qualify for victory....

And then there's the Blurbs.txt, so it could be quite a longish dissertation.

On the other hand, if each 'State Secret' (good name for it Vel) was generic, a person wouldn't know if they'd stolen the original, or a copy of a distant factions objectives. That could be very interesting. The names for the secrets could be State Secret #1, #2, etc., and it would be easy for a CMN to pick 7 from a list of say 20 possible and insert them into the alpha.txt.

quote: One intriguing thing then, would be to have a really abbreviated tech tree, lumping several advances into a few key techs, and creating a goodish number of "empty" techs at various points in the tree. - Vel

Indeed, you could do that. For SMAX you'd probably have to as there are very few free 'User Tech' type slots available. In SMAC, I think there are 7-9 or so, if you include the 2 gaps in the original #'s.

The question though is, can the objectives be complex enough to warrant more than a single 'hint'?

-S-

	11-10-2001 05:06									#16
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Oh my, what have I started?

Well, I'm not into editing the alpha text, I haven't got the time to learn that, perhaps someone else wants to take up that challenge- I do like that idea though.

Some refining thoughts: How about a 5 human, no AI contest- SMAC to keep it simple. Each player will have an ultimate goal along the lines of Vel's suggestions as well as additional restrictions and conditions. Clues will be linked to the tech-tree, i.e. you research intellectual integrity, let the CMN know & he provides you with data relating to one faction. Each faction would have say 3 clues, the first clue for each faction linked to a different tech of the same level, i.e. one set of clues at level 3, one at 4, & the final at 6.

I'll take submissions for participation, reliable & experienced players only please. (If it works I'll be open to CMN'ing others. Register your interest here & via email: Hobbes I'd also like suggestiions from creative players who won't be participating as to goals/conditions etc. Perhaps we could put together a panel?

	11-10-2001 05:11									#17
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Thanks man....and I think the basic system could be worked out any number of ways, with complex objectives, and hints spanning multiple techs, proprietary (non researchable) techs that must be stolen from each faction, or generic ones to be researched, with no mention of which faction they belong to. Each of these, and probably a good number of other variations on the theme would make for dramatically different game play....now all we need to do is sit down and come up with a number of "missions" log them someplace so we can copy and paste into the txt files, and we're set!

-=Vel=-

	11-10-2001 09:40									#18
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I suggest playing through a game (well, at least the opening stages) with a CMN providing all hints first, then later trying a game with customized 'State Secrets' techs. This will enable whomever mucks about the text files some time to make sure all is well functionally. And yes, I volunteer myself for that, so I'd like to 'sit on the panel' when and if a game goes that way. I'd be interested in being a player in a CMN-hint game.

I will say the alpha.txt changes themselves wouldn't be hard at all. The only forseeable difficulty comes with forcing an MP savegame to 'Eat' the new rules. I've had some difficulty with that 'feature' before, so would want to test it out. It's the MP aspect that's quirky.

Smac is pretty limited in these regards physically, and certainly in some sense it's like trying to make a Donkey drive like a Racehorse. No matter what rules you choose, it's going to take some role-playing and imagination to make the Lemonade.

-Smack

	11-10-2001 10:46									#19
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In the test game, it might be a good idea to have several alternative goals for each faction. That way someone (the actual player) will be thinking about the objectives more intently than someone just imagining them and more than one set of goals can be at least partially test driven by just one set of players. Even when a player decides not to try something, they will doubtless have thought it through more thoroughly than a non-player would be able to.

	11-10-2001 12:05									#20
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Wow, these are fascinating ideas!

Wouldn't it also be interesting if instead of having "state secrets" as secret mission conditions, but by having something like:

Gaians start with Centauri Ecology, Ecological Engineering
University starts with Information Networks, Intellectual Integrity
Morganites start with Industrial Base, Industrial Automation
Hive starts with Doctrine: Loyalty
Spartans start with Doctrine: Mobility, Applied Physics
Believers start with Social Psych, Doctrine: Loyalty
Peacekeepers start with Biogenetics, Ethical Calculus

With Ecological Engineering, Intellectual Integrity, Industrial Automation, Doctrine Loyalty, Applied Physics, and Ethical Calculus being "state secrets" (disabled in alpha.txt). Then, to get these techs, you'd have to probe them from other factions...

Of course, things would have to be incredibly balanced (these were chosen pretty arbitrarily, making sure that Sister Miriam isn't the only source of her "state secret"), and maybe even the techs which have "state secrets" as pre-requisites would have to be modified (like Gene Splicing leads right to Environmental Economics, instead of through the "state secret" Ecological Engineering), since most of these techs are not obsolete until VERY late in the game, if ever (you'd better hope you have the Weather Paradigm if you haven't probed Ecological Engineering!). Better techs would have to be found for Hive/Spartans/Believers, as you could live without Loyalty and DEFINATELY without Physics. Intellectual Integrity isn't the greatest either, but non-lethal methods is really a nifty thing for all factions, though Morgan (running Free Market) could probably do without it.

EDIT: I have a better idea

Instead of giving individual techs out like this, how about just making 7 user-techs ("Gaian State Secret", "University State Secret", etc) with specific but very important attributes?

For example, the Gaians would start with Centauri Ecology and Gaian State Secret, which would maybe contain information on Super Formers, Condensers, Boreholes, Raise/Lower land, etc, and Green Economics.. These attributes would be taken out of Ecological Engineering and Advanced Ecological Engineering, making the Gaians the only source of this important terraforming advantage.

The University could have Network Nodes and Biology Labs and Knowledge value in their State Secret, making it very difficult for other factions to get early labs (first lab facility is Research Hospital, which is expensive and only +25%)

The Morganites could have Crawlers, or if that's too big an advantage (probably is), Energy Banks, Free Market, and Wealth, giving them a monopoly on the early-game money sources.

The Peacekeepers could have Children's Creches, Recycling Tanks, and Democracy in their secret, making them the *only* pop-boom-ables (need Golden Age, still, unless you get Planned from Hive)

The Hive could have Police State, Planned, Command Center, Perimiter Defense, giving them massive defensive (both local (police) and global (+2 land morale, perimiter defense)) and powerful industry.

The Spartans could have Rovers, Power, and Bioenhancement Centers, giving them, well, lots of fast, high morale troops .

The Believers could have Fundamentalism, Probe Team special unit (cheaper than rover + probe equipment, maybe high morale and armored - you can make special units like that, right?), and the Encryption thing (x2 subvert cost) - I tried not to make Miriam's secrets too critical as she's un-infiltratable from the beginning, if she's starting with Fundamentalism!! But this should make Miriam a desirable choice for this game, as she'd have such good probe actions that she could get everyone's secrets more easily...

Then, most of social engineering and the early facilities are based on state secrets, leaving less infrastructure to build early on, and (hopefully) more probe team action to get these secrets!

Hopefully, there will also be more of a fight for Planetary Datalinks (hey, if two people have done the work before you, why should you?), and Hunter-Seeker (overpowered?)...HSA would add an interesting twist to the beginning tech (and possibly secrets) trade..."If I trade my secrets, when (if) I get the HSA, someone else will have my secrets, and do I want to make them vulnerable...?"

Perhaps everyone's secret should have a secret project associated with it, like Gaians/Weather Paradigm, University/Virtual World, Morganites/Merchant Exchange, Hive/Command Nexus, Spartans/Cyborg Factory, Peacekeepers/Empath Guild or maybe even Clinical Immortality ?, Believers/Hunter-Seeker (major denial!!)

Maybe, if the secret project thing is used, the Believers' probe bonus should be lowered so it's as high as it can be without being immune when running Fundamentalism. Then, they have to actually TRY to protect their Hunter-Seeker, and actually have a reason to build it.

Finally (a musing), maybe if you could get a hold of Fundamentalism by the time Thought Control came around, but still had the sole knowledge of your secrets, you should run Fundy/Thought Control for the immunity ? I might consider it, and I almost NEVER use Fundamentalism, and only use Thought Control until Cybernetic comes along!

Z

Last edited by Zakharov VII on 11-10-2001 at 12:31

	11-10-2001 12:45									#21
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quote: The Believers could have Fundamentalism, Probe Team special unit (cheaper than rover + probe equipment, maybe high morale and armored - you can make special units like that, right?), and the Encryption thing (x2 subvert cost) - I tried not to make Miriam's secrets too critical as she's un-infiltratable from the beginning, if she's starting with Fundamentalism!! But this should make Miriam a desirable choice for this game, as she'd have such good probe actions that she could get everyone's secrets more easily... Z

IIRC the +3 probe rating doesn't mak you un-infiltratable just un-subvertible - both troops and bases. You can still both extract techs and likes.

	11-10-2001 19:50									#22
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I'd be interested in being on the panel - it sounds like it would be great fun to play about with. I'm also probably willing to CMN a game like this, but not atm to play - I'm just not reliable enough (right Vultur? )