19-02-2002 21:45									#271
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2179 to the gaians

	20-02-2002 09:33									#272
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

and on to the PKs

	20-02-2002 09:58									#273
	Remove this text

79 to drones.

	20-02-2002 22:02									#274
	Suffering from ads?

2179 to Flubber.

	21-02-2002 19:06									#275
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

2180 to vitaminj

	22-02-2002 01:14									#276
	Increase the size of your Attachments

80 to drones

	24-02-2002 23:19									#277
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

81 to PKs

	25-02-2002 00:46									#278
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

81 to drones

	25-02-2002 21:55									#279
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

82 to PKs

	26-02-2002 02:00									#280
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

J just infiltrated me without declaring vendetta first and without my consent which is a clear violation of the rules.

"If a probe team action is employed against a Treatied or Pacted faction, the initiator must choose the "Declare Vendetta" option, unless permission is received in advance for the action (email)."

Therefore, there should be definite compensation.

I'll ask Tau Ceti what he thinks it should be.

Turn has been sent to drones.

	26-02-2002 03:57									#281
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

2182 to Flubber.

smhfan, how do you know you were infiltrated? I think the point of the rule is to ensure that you are notified that you were infiltrated, so you can take appropriate action against the perpetrator if you wish, since the program does not notify you in MP. If you were somehow notified, then all is well.

	26-02-2002 04:01									#282
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Poor wording on the rules. The intention is to stop players from stealing tech etc, ie. the actions the game consider offensive, then select "I will overlook the action for now" from the dialog box that shows up (this decision should be made by the victim, but the box shows up on the perpetrator's turn only).

Infiltrating datalinks is not considered an act of war by the game, and can be done by anyone with impunity. Players are of course free to react violently if they wish, but it should not be considered a rule breach. I apologize for the confusion.

(Even with the current (poor) wording, it is strictly not a breach, as no option to declare vendetta appears.)

	26-02-2002 04:04									#283
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Notification is not actually required, unless the action starts a vendetta. You can infiltrate people secretly, and steal as much tech as you like if you are already at war. Notification would simulate SP more, but it is not usual to do it in MP.

	26-02-2002 04:23									#284
	Suffering from ads?

To clarify my understanding, the requirement to declare vendetta was put into the MP rules because of a game bug. If A probes B and the probe is "caught", the notification goes to A and asks if he wants to declare vendetta or let it go. Obviously this notification should go to B. Therefore the rule is that you ALWAYS select the "declare vendetta" option when it appears unless you have prior permission.

Note if your probe does not get "caught" then the vendetta is not declared as the option never appears.

The other possibility, like this case, is where a human player spots a probe or probeship and knows they have been infiltrated when the probeship or probe disappears.

	26-02-2002 04:37									#285
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Oh, now I understand. The wording in the rules is indeed confusing. I always thought it meant you had to declare vendetta before probing. Now I see it only means to select vendetta if a dialog comes up AFTER probing.

	26-02-2002 05:02									#286
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is correct.

The rule has been worded like that since the tournament started over two years ago , and I think it was originally a cut 'n' paste from ACOL. I will go and change it now...

	26-02-2002 05:04									#287
	Inflate your Upload Space

2183 to the powerful vitaminj

	26-02-2002 05:05									#288
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

so what's the bug then? is the bug when player b doesn't get informed of the infiltration?

cuz that rule should be clarified as to what constitutes a need for permission or declaration of vendetta and when.

i was playing the whole time assuming if someone infiltrated me, i would be informed by the computer automatically.

	26-02-2002 05:12									#289
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Okay, i understand the game bug now. the declaration and notification goes to player A, when it should go to player B.

Confusing.

	26-02-2002 05:16									#290
	Tired of ads?

wait a sec. why does it say you have to get permission from a treatied or pacted faction? wouldn't that imply the vendetta should be before the probe and not after?

	26-02-2002 05:25									#291
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Uh... why?

You need to get permission if you want to perform the action without causing vendetta. Teammates may sometimes want this, notably during sunspots, when the normal means of sharing techs are unavailable. If you want surprise, and/or you do not mind causing a vendetta, don't ask.

Anyway, the wording has been changed to If an aggressive probe action (anything except infiltration) is used on a faction you have a treaty or pact with, you must select 'Declare Vendetta' in the dialog box that appears afterwards, and notify the victim of your transgression, unless you have received permission in advance. No notification is required in other cases. which I hope is clear enough.

I took the opportunity to make some other changes too. They are highlighted in italics, so check them out here.

	26-02-2002 05:52									#292
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Now, now people, let's not go getting miffed over a little infiltration! There are numerous holes in my probe defenses even as we speak, so take your best shot... Not like the PKs need any help, holding the governorship and the Empath Guild. Was building that an act of war, or what?

smhfan86: I only told you so you'd know we're on even footing as far as infiltration goes. I thought it might help in negotiations.

Having just read some of the rules again, I'm struck by something: the crawler upgrade is allowed? I didn't see it specifically mentioned, but in the design workshop upgrades section it refers to being able to upgrade a crawler and use it for SP completion on the same turn. Just as long as everyone knows this. I haven't done it yet this game, but you can be sure I will! I'm gonna read 'em again...

2183 has been sent to the Peacekeepers, whose state secrets are being broadcast around Planet even as we speak...

Last edited by vitamin j on 26-02-2002 at 09:24

	26-02-2002 10:12									#293
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2183 to drones.

okay, what the heck is the crawler upgrade, and if everyone else has been exploiting it, how can i?

	26-02-2002 19:06									#294
	Put an end to popups!

It's a way to buy minerals for a lot cheaper than you'd have to pay if you used the ''hurry" option for building. Just design an armored crawler with the most expensive abilities you can tack on. They can often be worth 100 or 200+ minerals, but they're relatively cheap to make if you use a plain crawler and upgrade with cash. I think it's a totally ridiculous thing to allow, but if everyone doesn't agree to not use it, I'm going to.

There's a good thread in G/H/S on the various bugs/features most relevant to MP. It's authored by Helium Pond and was bumped up not to long ago. I think it's called "consensus on cheating". I recommend checking it out.

I also want to tell everyone that I'm moving (back) to Colorado on Thursday. It will probably be the beginning of next week before I'm able to play turns again. Sorry for the inconvenience.

	26-02-2002 21:50									#295
	Inflate your Upload Space

I confess I am with vitaminj on this one. If someone infiltrates me I don't see it as an act of war . . . but of course others are free to feel differently. However, steal tech or any of the other probe actions are things I would cosider hostile. Killing a defensive probe is also to be considered hostile. As far as I am aware there is no way to tell you have been infiltrated other than by the Governor and Empath Guild other than by inference when you spot an approaching probe team.

The crawler trick is allowed in all the games I am aware of. I have not done it in this game (heck I have not had ind auto that long) but I would use it unless we had a specific agreement to ban it. IIRC the "problem" is that rushing a wonder costs 4 ec per mineral while the ec per mineral to upgrade a crawler is much less. I believe marione even did a table that outlined the most cost-effective configurations.

Oh vitaminj, have fun on the move and welcome to the mountain time zone . I moved to Alberta in August so I know how time-consuming and aggravating a move can be. I will have a period of unavailability myself in March. I was married back in Oct and the (delayed) honeymoon is March 20-30 and since I do not intend to bring a laptop , there will be a delay.

	27-02-2002 04:39									#296
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes, using upgraded crawlers to advance SPs (and prototypes, if you wish) is allowed and encouraged. Like Flubber, I do not know of any MP games that ban this; some people have criticized the practice when it has been brought up in the general forums, but they tend to be SPers only for some reason.

Personally, I see no good reasons to ban it. Crawlers follow the exact same upgrade cost formula as all other units, so there is nothing anomalous there. Besides, you get into a lot of trouble if you attempt to regulate something like this. There are perfectly legitimate other reasons why you might want to upgrade crawlers, for example to armoured/trance to defend against worm attacks or to drop for the additional mobility. Should you then not be allowed to use such an upgraded crawler for a project at a later date? And if not, and you had also built other crawlers of the same design, you would have to manually keep track of which ones had been upgraded?

I say nay. Let efficient crawler design be a part of your strategy.

	27-02-2002 04:47									#297
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Could I get a link to this GHS thread?

Personally, I'm a newbie at multiplayer so I don't know all the tricks of the trade.

	27-02-2002 08:55									#298
	Tired of ads?

Tau: There is an anomalous thing with the crawler upgrade since you can't cash other units in for projects and prototypes at full value. Anyway, it doesn't really matter I guess, as long as everyone knows. What this basically means is that it's a complete waste of time to have a base working on a project ever, if you have the ability to build crawlers. Save your crawlers and build your projects all at once.

Being a relative newbie to MP myself, I thought Flubber brought up an interesting point: "Killing a defensive probe is also considered to be hostile." But this will have no immediate effect on diplomatic status, right? And you will recieve a message informing you of the attack on your turn? I've been wondering about this.

And thanks for the good wishes, Flubber. It'll be good to get back out that way again. And it's weird, but I really miss being on mountain time!

	27-02-2002 21:27									#299
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi gang

we have been discussing things but who has the turn ?? Is it me?


There is often a difference between what the game considers hostile and what a human would. For example, if you started placing ships on my terraformed sea tiles to deny me access to the resources . . . the games would do nothing . . . well it does allow a "demand withdrawal" but using that is forbidden in MP rules since it would allow the AI to make the choice on behalf of your human opponent. My response would be to kill the ships after a warning . Things like blockading a base would be similar.

On the killing a probe . . . IIRC probe battles are considered covert while killing a probe with a unit causes a vendetta. I do not recall whether you get a message when a probe is killed by another probe but usually people notice when their probes disappear. Besides, the winning probe is left standing there and if you spot one outside your base, it doesn't take much to figure things out.

So where is the turn?

I am really enjoying this game and want to get back to it.

	27-02-2002 22:12									#300
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quote: So where is the turn?

smhfan86 said a few posts back that he sent it to me yesterday. I suspect that my email has been broken at home, because I never received a single email all day yesterday, which is very unusual as I am in eleven PBEMs. Today, emails from several days ago have started trickling in. So I expect that I will probably receive the turn by this evening. If not, I will contact smhfan directly and request a resend.