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Stormhound
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New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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I'm copying this over from the MOO3 forum so that those of you who don't care to visit can still participate. There will be a lot more on the forum (including discussion), but if you just want to fling ideas you can do so.
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Thank you for your interesting in learning about and, hopefully, voluntarily helping us to create the Events in Master of Orion III . At the end of this message you'll find an attachment with a .zip file that contains all the revelent .doc files. EventEngine.doc is where the information is. Be sure to read the "Reader's Note" at the very beginning to understand the color coding of the text within.
Game Design Philosophy: Now I must state why the Events engine in MOO3 is what you're about to read. The high-concept is "you know, but you don't know for sure." Remember, the player is in a position higher than that of a galactic emperor (who is the player's occasional avatar). And above the emperor is the provence of Events -- so in MOO3 the players have a much more "hands on" game within the game vis-a-vis Events. [Like every other aspect of MOO3 , we wanted to make each section rich enough in scope and design that you could focus on it as "the thing you do" when playing the game, and (I believe) Events certainly qualifies as a stand-alone engrossing aspect of play.]
I started with the "card game" metaphore, because tOhat made many of the concepts easier to anchor mentally. But as you'll read, that's just a point of departure, not the final destination. The Events system in MOO3 is (in theory) almost limitless. There's lots of room for imagination (that's where you come in) and we can put in as many as we have time for before we ship the product. So, we're asking now to give us time to weed out suggestions that are too silly, will require too much work to implement, etc. and to develop the ones that resonate within the spirit of the MOO3 design.
We're after a lot of things with the Event engine for MOO3. It's a place for storytelling. It's a place for gross game balancing (boosting the weak a bit and nobbling the mighty on occasion). Oddly, it relies on "the human element" in a great many cases because using an Event is seldom a "no brainer" play. There are always possibilities and potential repercussions. And with IFPs being required to play all but the most common events, there are opportunity costs as well. What we try to give you is that most dangerous thing, "a little knowledge." That is, you can gauge how an Event should work out, but that doesn't always mean that's how it will work out. We've tried to balance the Cosmic Karma element, the "fickle finger of fate," and human nature all at once, and we call it The Events Engine for MOO3. It was an awesome design undertaking.
Note that I'll open up a lot of Event Design discussion threads. Those with serious thoughts about Events will have specific questions about the game design and, to the best of my ability, I'll try to help you with "yes, we can do that," or "no, we can't" wherever possible. I'll also try to stimulate lines of thinking for things such as Quests, Wonders, and more. Look for those threads within this discussion folder.
Enjoy!
Alan Emrich, MOO3 designer
Quicksilver Software, Inc.
The value of a good thing is to have done it.
Note: please submit your ideas HERE
 Attachment: events.zip
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).
Last edited by Stormhound on 11-10-2001 at 22:32
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mactbone
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Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven
Sep 2001
time: 23:15
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Alright, sorry for not using your specific parameters, I'm just going to try and throw out ideas.
This one would be a concept where a Starliner crashes. Depending on what type of card depends on the severity.
Starliner Implodes!
Common, Naturally Occuring
"Please note the space suits under your seat. In the event of a an accident in space it will be the only thing between you and implosion." - Last words by stewardess before implosion.
Causes pioneer migration to be reduced according to the number of planets under your control, the more planets you have, the less you are affected (my reasoning is that there are more people willing to go when they realize the odds are smaller of them imploding).
Starliner Crashes!
Uncommon, Naturally Occuring
Frank: "And off to your right you can see the great planet Grastor."
Nylar: "Uhhh, Frank, I don't see Grastor..."
Frank: "Oh no, we're heading straight at it!" - Message taken from Starliner 3901's Red Box.
Since the Starliner crashed into a populated (although not very populated) planet, the effects are greater then the common occurence. It would also start decreasing the amount of regular migration between your cities.
Starliners Collide!
Rare, Naturally Occuring
"We were just cruising along, minding our own business, when BAM that dang S.S. Spear runs into us. I swear I ain't never been happier I'd decided to wear my spacesuit the whole trip." - Blrno, sole survivor of the S.S. Spear - S.S. Minnow collision.
Again, worse consequences, now it starts affecting other people's migration to your empire.
Unsinkable Sunk!
Cataclysmicm Naturally Occuring
"This 'ere ship ain't never gonna wreck." - Chief Engineer of the S.S. Unsinkable, which days later crashed into the ice planet Ploh.
Again, worse effects. For several turns your citizens are gripped with a fear of Galactic Travel and, excpet for a few brave individuals, don't travel.
I hope this is the kind of stuff you're looking for.
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moomin
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Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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Having downloaded the zip and absorbed the information I have to say that I, personally, don't care for the event system at all. The whole notion of me hitting another player with newly discovered gold mines, or some such thing, is oddly out of place with a strategy game. I recall the board-game version of civilization, that quickly became a farce as players tried to shove calamities at each other. Luck of draw entirely overrode any strategy that may have been in place before the deluge started.
I've been fairly interested in most things I hear about Moo3 - if it's going to be a failure at least it's going to be a grandiose failure, as opposed to another "me too" sequel that fails to deliver, and the 4x world has been crying out for a feature like the IFP ever since the first 4x player first noted that endgame tends to become somewhat tedious - even if the IFP AI govenors had better be _spectacular_ for this implementation not to fall flat on its face.
But the event system, as far as I see it is just stupid and out of place. I realise that given the amount of work that seems to have gone into its design it's not very likely to change now, but should you guys need another round of feature-cuts, this seems like a very good candidate to me.
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Stormhound
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New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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Having seen some similar responses on the MOO3 board, I wasn't too surprised by them (though I'll point out for future reference that I have a tendency to NOT answer posts when the author calls something "stupid" rather than giving constructive criticism, and depending on just how bad it was I'm not averse to setting them on ignore); it's inevitable that for any given feature, someone will absolutely loathe it. Given that those who complain are usually more vocal, and that on this particular feature they're badly outnumbered by those who like it, I don't feel bad about it. We had worse trouble over IFP and real-time space combat.
I suppose we could have gone with the same-ol'-same-ol' random event engine, instead of trying to do something daring, but that wasn't our style. We'd rather go down swinging than just stand there with the bat on our shoulder and hope we get four balls.
A few quick comments on the event system itself:
1) Things like "hitting someone with a newly discovered gold mine" don't take much imagination to explain in perfectly conventional terms. Consider: you paid IFP to play that card, so your empire obviously made some effort on behalf of the recipient. Maybe you sent some advisors, or information from an independent prospector, or something. Yes, some events are going to be stranger than that, but that's why they're segregated and you have to choose to include them in your game.
2) Control of events is itself tricky. Consider that the empire you'd really like to hit with the event might not even be on the card's eligible target list. Consider that it might not hit its intended target, or that it might be deflected. All you get a choice about is whether it's worth your IFP to bother setting it loose on the game, and who you'd prefer the target to be. You also have the option to not do it, and to agree with the other human players in the game not to employ events. Of course, such an agreement might not be worth the paper it isn't written on... 
3) My own experience with Civilization (the board game) was different, and I suspect that it depends who one gamed with. The calamities tended to hit the leaders, and there was frequent diplomacy geared toward agreements not to pelt one another with them if at all possible. Much of any game depends upon what those playing make of it, and I would suggest that certain Horatios expand their philosophies.
4) I don't have much sympathy for the "punishing the player for playing well" point of view on event composition; the directed style keeps the weaker players competitive and important for longer, and helps slow down the tendency of games to divide into groups of "haves" and "have nots". There are a lot of mechanisms in the design that work against the stronger/bigger empire...we'll see who's up to the challenge of climbing a hill that gets steeper the higher you go.
Marcus, you hit the nail on the head with regard to the de-emphasis of eXterminate in the design of the game. I'm sure that'll bug the heck out of some people too, but if it can keep the outcome of the game in doubt for longer, then it'll be worth it. People complain a lot about games that get boring because past a certain point, you know who's going to win. We'll see how many complain about a game that keeps you guessing the whole time instead.
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moomin
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Moo Like In Moomin
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormhound
Having seen some similar responses on the MOO3 board, I wasn't too surprised by them (though I'll point out for future reference that I have a tendency to NOT answer posts when the author calls something "stupid" rather than giving constructive criticism, and depending on just how bad it was I'm not averse to setting them on ignore);
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I'm sorry if you feel offended, that certainly wasn't my intention. Let me just point out I too did say _why_ I thought - and think - the current implementaition is, eh, suboptimal. Since I am a software developer myself, albeit not in the entertainment sector, I know all to well how easy it is to love an idea that pops up so much that you never really consider if perhaps the project should be better of if it was canned entirely. In hindsight, I've done things that seem not only stupid, but downright moronic. In my humble opinion, Sir, the events system you've presented here may be one of those features that you may, sometime in the future, feel dubious about.
Still, it is your game. You guys will take the financial and reputational responsibility, while I'm sitting on the fence, venting as I go, since in the worst case my scarifice will be buying a game that turns out not to be better value for money than a movies ticket. You are perfectly free to igonore that, of course.
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it's inevitable that for any given feature, someone will absolutely loathe it. Given that those who complain are usually more vocal, and that on this particular feature they're badly outnumbered by those who like it, I don't feel bad about it. We had worse trouble over IFP and real-time space combat.
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Only if "worse trouble" is measured solely on the basis of number of complaints, as opposed to the quality of those complaints. If you think that the complaint is rediculous and without any merit, then the fact that many people voice it should not bother you overmuch, should it?
quote:
I suppose we could have gone with the same-ol'-same-ol' random event engine, instead of trying to do something daring, but that wasn't our style. We'd rather go down swinging than just stand there with the bat on our shoulder and hope we get four balls.
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An attitude I applaud wholeheartedly. I do wish you the best of luck, and short of Moo3 being an abomination of BC3K class, I will buy it just to see how your creativity pans out. I have, after all, bought all 4x turn-based game released in the last ten years, or so.
But I do think that perhaps, from a gaming point of view, the biggie that will make or break Moo3 is the IFP system. I don't think you need to bend over backward to be as revolutionary in other areas - a good IFP system will take 4x to new heights all by itself.
quote:
A few quick comments on the event system itself:
1) Things like "hitting someone with a newly discovered gold mine" don't take much imagination to explain in perfectly conventional terms. Consider: you paid IFP to play that card, so your empire obviously made some effort on behalf of the recipient. Maybe you sent some advisors, or information from an independent prospector, or something. Yes, some events are going to be stranger than that, but that's why they're segregated and you have to choose to include them in your game.
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Surely there is ample room to bestow benefits/punishments upon others within the diplomatic and spying systems? I can understand you want to add flavor to the game by events, but frankly, I see dealing with cards both as a bad metaphore for this kind of game and as a needless exception for your overall laudable aim of reducing MM and focus on grand strategy.
quote:
2) Control of events is itself tricky. Consider that the empire you'd really like to hit with the event might not even be on the card's eligible target list. Consider that it might not hit its intended target, or that it might be deflected. All you get a choice about is whether it's worth your IFP to bother setting it loose on the game, and who you'd prefer the target to be. You also have the option to not do it, and to agree with the other human players in the game not to employ events. Of course, such an agreement might not be worth the paper it isn't written on...
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Are there in-game options - treaties - to agree on "event neutrality" between players (with appropriate punishments for betrayal of trust) or is this entirely regulated in the meta-channel (as implied form your statement about "human players" above)?
As you describe the event system I see it as a rough equivalent of spying ops in other games (albeit with the interesting option of doing good things to your target) and can't but help to feel that your burning too much time and effort on something that does not really deserve it.
Me, I thought that spying in Moo2 was nicely abstracted and that it would have been perfect had the options included the ability to choose who you wanted to try to frame and what tech to actually look for. Pax Imperia 2, by contrast, had an ambitious spying system that allowed you to steal ships, destroy massive amounts of real estate and incite planetary rebellions, and as a result was unplayable as the game deteriorated to a massive planetary flip-flop as players "rebelled" each other massively in the end-game. I'm very much afraid that the proposed event system will lend itself to similar abuse.
quote:
3) My own experience with Civilization (the board game) was different, and I suspect that it depends who one gamed with. The calamities tended to hit the leaders, and there was frequent diplomacy geared toward agreements not to pelt one another with them if at all possible. Much of any game depends upon what those playing make of it, and I would suggest that certain Horatios expand their philosophies.
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Experiences differ. My experience was that luck (and some framing skill, true) decided the outcome of that game, and that's totally out of bounds for a strategy game.
quote:
4) I don't have much sympathy for the "punishing the player for playing well" point of view on event composition; the directed style keeps the weaker players competitive and important for longer, and helps slow down the tendency of games to divide into groups of "haves" and "have nots". There are a lot of mechanisms in the design that work against the stronger/bigger empire...we'll see who's up to the challenge of climbing a hill that gets steeper the higher you go.
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That's all fine and well. I seldom play Moo2 beyond turn 150 or so, becuase it's abundantly clear by then whether I'm going to win or lose and the rest is just tedious mopping-up. However, personally I'd much prefer this goal be achieved by the AIs being much more prone to ally and "hit the leader" than by some skewed-missfortune system. After all, back in reality, missfortune does not tend to favour the successful... With all the effort that has gone into the interesting political system and the Antarean senate, I feel there is ample room for you to design a growing challenge without resorting to these kinds of - imho - "cheap tricks".
quote:
Marcus, you hit the nail on the head with regard to the de-emphasis of eXterminate in the design of the game. I'm sure that'll bug the heck out of some people too, but if it can keep the outcome of the game in doubt for longer, then it'll be worth it. People complain a lot about games that get boring because past a certain point, you know who's going to win. We'll see how many complain about a game that keeps you guessing the whole time instead. |
Being a card-carrying builder type, I'm happy to see the rapid genocidal path to victory will at least be made more difficult. But I can't help but feeling that the event system is the wrong type of cure for the certain endgame syndrome.
Btw, unless you've already plonked me, could you please confirm if the system specs posted to another thread are correct, that's if you intend to support win 9x/ME only, and not Win 2k/XP?
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:15
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Two points:
1) About events that can be triggered by space emperors.
Events controlled by player are not really random, so I hope they can all be "explained".
If I have a card like "pour a nova on one of your opponents", I will wonder how I can do that, and why I cannot do it repeatedly.
This means events should NOT include novae, since one race that could frame a sun could probably repeat it.
Also, it bars diseases: Plagues would be a biological weapon, used by spies, not a random event.
What will there be left that makes sense?
2) About giving random weapons to all races independent on their ability to produce them.
I am afraid that those events will be annoying and that's all: If you wage war against the whole galaxy, you'll suddenly suffer from fits of revolutions, plagues and novae just because other people don't like you????? Say you have 5 opponents who want you dead. How many disasters will happen to you? 5 times more than to any one of them? Isn't that enough of a challenge to be outnumbered 5 to 1?
I am afraid one of the reasons end-game sometimes lengthens is that you spend an eternity destroying the pesky empires before you can crush the big one: Advantaging the weak I don't like, since if you crush them faster, you reach the endgame faster (I often lost 10 turns bombing a planet with 40+ missiles in MOO, where I could destroy only 5 or 6 per turn, and the planet couldn't damage my ship - fixing that, I'd have finished many games faster since I'd have had additional planets much earlier-). I am not looking for a longer game, but for a challenge: In the end, I always played MOO on small galaxies with max races, so you were happy to have 4 stars! In that context, a nova early usually meant "Game Over, restart", I wish I could turn random events off.
Making the game challenging to the end CAN be making the game end earlier, rather than artificially make it more difficult. I never like to have a "new challenge" when I have conquered 3/4 of the world. I'd rather have the game end and start anew (maybe because I prefer the beginning of the game to later stages).
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Master Marcus
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Quebec, Canada
Jan 2000
time: 00:15
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I've just submitted the goodie to Sencho ( the Events guy ), so why not to share it here - and incite other apolytoners to send their ideas too...the Events idea generator is limitless...
1) The Galactic Matrix
--suit: quest
--commonality: rare
--circle: meta
--deck: science-fiction
--cost: 2 IFPs
--expires in: 6-10 turns
--play: planning phase
"Simplicity is bliss": Galactic Matrix is a simple acronym, but a potent one ( originally I've imagined the Antaran Background called Antaran Matrix instead - the omniscient aura and all ). The unavoidable word Matrix should figure at least once somewhere in the game.
The event title says it all : a legendary supercomputer generating an immersive virtual reality, at a faster than light and constant speed connection throughout the galaxy, created by Antarans and lost during the ancient orionic war ( may be part of the Antaran Xs ). This parallel universe can be rebuilt once again upon the recovery of proper CPU artifacts ( antique quantum tech not necessarily located on Orion ) and having the tech prerequisites ( also in the arts&culture because of the inherent archeological search and historical understanding ). The wonder's completion gives the owner +100 Legend points , +10% RPs, +10% espionage ( or -10% cost ), and CIVIL WAR IMMUNITY. Side effect: +5% HFOG ( security measures, inspector fees, etc...) and some huge demands from the Senate and neighbors in the next turns.
Can be cataclysmic also, but not common ( unless we have single "old quantum CPU discovery" carrot event cards giving a much smaller benefit ).
2) Extra-Oxy Ambassador
--suit: character
--commonality: uncommon
--circle: diplomatic
--deck: naturally occurring
--cost: 1 IFP
--expires in: 2-5 turns
--play: diplomacy phase ( and/or Combat phase if used as Luck against a Fate attack ?)
After David Brin and various authors : there are extra oxygen inhalators in the galaxy, namely a whole "parallel" universe filled with potent hydrogen inhalating races. The Extra-Oxy Ambassador is a ultra-skilled and experienced negociator, exceedingly charismatic and delegated by your civ to manage a delicate embassy vis-à-vis a peaceful hydrogen inhalating race ( or can be aliens conglomerate from another dimension, or extra-galactic, etc... ). Benefits: +xxxx AUs, +minerals, +tech(s), and/or armor/shield unknown yet in tech tree, and/or may be part of Antaran X quest. Neighbors may ask for a share.
Can be redesigned as Luck event against a Fate ( see 5) ). Can be common or rare with adjusted benefits.
3) The Alter Egoist
--suit: character
--commonality: common
--circle: outlaw
--deck: naturally occurring
--cost: 0 IFP
--expires in: 2-4 turns
--play: planning phase
This is one of the most basic events. The Alter Egoist is a corporate raider for hire, a travel expert and once nomadic, which at a steep price can act as a spy in an empire's SECTOR: performing such traditional sabotage leading to AUs decreased, research slowed down, leaders corruption and assassination, for finally taking place of one of the most skilled leader ( viceroy, etc...) thus reducing the AI ability to manage the sector to the LOWEST ( i.e. artificial idiot ) before a new regular one is to be assigned when the treachery is discovered. On the contrary of a common spy, the "enemy" will not react against the framed civ but against the nearest nomadic one ( other than yours ), AS YOU will upgrade your relations with nomadic entries ( because of knowledge brought by the agent ). Side effect: your guy is reckless and can change his agenda en route - that's the random side of the event: he can strike another empire, a friendly one against your will.
4) Life Preserve I, II, III ( each a distinct card )
I : "Sanctity of Civilization" ( already in the design plan ). I see it as rare, can be uncommon, etc...
Life Preserve II: ECO Preserves Act
--suit: Lex Galactica
--commonality: rare
--circle: political
--deck: science-fiction
--cost: 2 IFPs
--expires in: 3-6 turns
--play: diplomacy phase
If this Act proposed to the Orion Senate is passed, all the members unite their efforts to encourage ecological management and towards a cleaner terraforming. Pollution reduced at all colonies for ALL members ( full, and spectator?) non-barbarians, and the proposal initiator gains a more efficient "environmental economics": +xxxx AUs ( or substantial +% DGP ), and increased trade + easier bribing with eco-oriented races. Side effect: a light +1-2% HFOG ( increased bureaucracy, ecoengineers, corruption by industrial conglomerates, etc... ). The total benefit is positive.
A member considered too much a planet scrapper ( data to be determined ) can be casted out of the Senate by a unanimous ( or 3/4?) vote.
Can be uncommon with decreased + and -.
Life Preserve III: NO Genocide Pact
--suit: Lex Galactica
--commonality: cataclysmic
--circle: political
--deck: science-fiction
--cost: 3 IFPs
--expires in: 6-12 turns ?
--play: planning or diplomacy phase?
A very rare proposal like an upgraded "Sanctity of Civilization". If passed, the Orion Senate and members engage in a global non-genocidal pact: in a highly civilized galaxy, no bombardment or atrocity of any kind should be perpetrated against any populated colony, anywhere. Civilian casualties are not allowed. No race eradication is tolerated: a full scale alliance is to be forged ( minimum number of hulls - to be determined - from each member ) against any ruthless empire having performed the extermination. The measure is retro-active. The exterminator is banished forever from the Senate, and the allied fleet has the mission to confine the sentient atrocity to its sole homeworld ( by a permanent blockade: then the same +200 points - or more?- to the empire whose admiral lead the last attack - or something like that ), of course without destroying any other colony ( only invading and capturing ).
Guess the warmongers MUST prevent this bill to be passed at any cost...and dare we say that the AI must be programmed to be as honorable as you when playing as part of this alliance....can be a mess...
5) Hydrogen Inhalators Attacking !
--suit: Fate
--commonality: uncommon
--circle: military
--deck: naturally occurring ( or sci-fi?!)
--cost: 1 IFP
--expires in: 2-5 turns
--play: Combat phase
--CATEGORY: Unfortunate
A ruthless hydro race ( or can be aliens from another dimension, extra-galactic, etc... ) attacks a rich & strategic solar system ( à la Antarans in MoO2 but much more damaging - depending of the commonality we can redesign ). No negociation is possible at first sight , but perhaps so if you have an Extra Oxy Ambassador in your pool at that time ( or acting as the shielding Luck card ). If the military is unsufficient to repel the attack, the aliens destroy DEAs, pop, and steal enough minerals on a point to lower a notch the mineral classification of selected planets/moons - most of them likely.
The idea is to balance the challenge offered to a peacemaker next to the warmonger on MoO3's huge maps.
The peacemaker player MUST build a strong fleet also in order to succeed, and that combined to the strong piracy promised by the developers team should be more than enough.
P.S. I did ignored intentionally the " lottery weight " setting; I don't corner it yet. I'll stay on the ideas realm and let the real coding to the experts.
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Starfighter08
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Switzerland
Nov 2000
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormhound
4) I don't have much sympathy for the "punishing the player for playing well" point of view on event composition; the directed style keeps the weaker players competitive and important for longer, and helps slow down the tendency of games to divide into groups of "haves" and "have nots". There are a lot of mechanisms in the design that work against the stronger/bigger empire...we'll see who's up to the challenge of climbing a hill that gets steeper the higher you go.
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Does that mean that the AI is too weak to be a real challenge without help? Please tell me that I'm wrong. As a matter of fact (almost) all games which had events punishing the successfull had terrible AI. Maybe now you understand our skepticism (sp?).
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Green Giant
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Ok, you guys better have a very very big and well organized manual and an interactive tutorial with MOO3.
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Green Giant
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I have a few ideas though:
1)Charismatic spriritual leader.
Changes the ethos of a random planet. This ethos is much more contageous than a normal one for a period of turns. As the commonality decreases the scope of its affect increases until in rare a wide area of 15 systems are effected regardless of race.
2)Defection
A random fleet from another empire chooses to defect to yours. The race this fleet defected from may attack it without declareing war on you. The job of the player is to guide this fleet through enemy territory while trying to minimize casualties. The result is that the players gets to keep what is left of the fleet.
3)Mecca
The system has become a holy place for pilgrimage for its particular ethos. It recieves marked stability and the ethos there is very unlikely to change. Commerce there is greatly increased as is the population and happiness.
4)Quest: Capture Mecca
Capture a Mecca of one of your tolerated ethos' and get a certain amount point/special bonus
I am not totally familiar with the game so I am only able to give broad concepts.
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11-10-2001 22:22
, thanks to Stormhound, so feel free to ask questions.
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