13-11-1999 23:50									#1
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I`m considering making a scenario about Holland during WW2, and these are my questions:

a) Is it worth it? Is there enough that happened that is worth translating into a scenario?

b)Where can I find reference material on the subject?

c)Is there a map of Holland during the late 1940`s? Seeing as it changes almost constantly during to land reclamation, the date is important.

Any help would be appreciated!

	14-11-1999 01:10									#2
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Most certainly you can make a good scen about that!

a)There wasn't much in the first half though.Exept that Rotterdam got almost wiped out by the Luftwaffe and the Netherlands were overrun by the Wehrmacht within 12 days (Blitzkrieg)as far as I remember. But how about trying to do it even faster when playing the germans or when playing the dutch try to slow them down long enough for help to arive?
However, when the germans were on the retreat there was A LOT of fighting.
Just think of Eindhovenm, Nijmegen and Arnheim( The Bridge of Arnheim).
The V2 missiles were launched from The Hague(I life here at the moment)
and in the winter of '44 or '45 there was an enormous famine in the german controlled part of the netherlands.

Are you just thinking of Holland or also Belgium? Then you could included the Battle of the Bulge(Ardennes) and Antwerpes(many V2 attacks here, almost nothing left of the city)

b)There are several sites on the net but I don't know their url.I'll have a look around.

c) Yes, there are! You best ask Allard for one! He knows where to fing one!

Hendrik the Great

	14-11-1999 15:23									#3
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Great, so at least there`s potential here!

Most of what I know about Holland during the war comes from my Dutch grandparents, who surprising remember very little (or they`d rather forget what happened). My grandfather (or opa, as we call him to distinguish him from my English grandfather) can remember watching the Germans bombing Rotterdam, as can my grandmother (or oma), as they both lived there. Other than that, they remember the famine, and very little else.

Belgium could be included, and the Allied nations, like Britain, could be represented by Holland in the form of extra troops.

	14-11-1999 17:01									#4
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Just thought of it...
Why not make a scenario about Operation Market Garden? It was the largest airdrop ever undertaken. There were about 35.000 allied troops involved. That is those are the troops that landed by parachute.
Another large army group had to fight its way from Belgium to Eindhoven then to Nijmegen and last but not least to Arnhem.
The entire operation had a very small timeframe to work. So you can very easily make it a great challenge.
They didn't reach Arbhem though. That city was totally devastated by german tank divisions

Hendrik the Great

	15-11-1999 00:49									#5
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Finally! Someone else has seen the light! A scenario about Holland! Fantastic! I will give all possible cooperation to your project!

a) It's definately worth it! No doubt!
Hey, there were also some V2's launched from my village (Bergen (NH) bij Alkmaar)
b) don't know about that, perhaps in a library or on the Internet. Or I can ask my grandfather (opa, I actually call him opi to separate him from the other ) he was a pilot at the start and then he went in the resistance.
But unfortunately my "opa" hardly wants to talk about it.
c) You can use the map of Holland from my Republic scenario. As for the reclaiming of the land, you can simply fill the lakes in with land. I have exact maps with statistics on what polder was made when.

	15-11-1999 21:48									#6
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Thanks Allard, I`m sure I`ll need your help in several places!

The main problem I have is with the map.I know that the lakes around Holland (the provinces rather than the country) were filled in some time ago, but areas where I`m a bit sketchy include the polders (did the Flevoland polder exist during the war?) and Zeeland, for instance, my grandparents used to live in Walcheren, which is now joined to Zuid Beveland, but was it so 50 years ago?

Other than that, my lack of knowledge on the subject holds me back, but by doing this scenario I could learn a lot! For instance, I didn`t know that there was an organized resistance, as my grandparents were not even 10 when the war began, and all they remember is being hungry, rather than living in fear of the Germans. Also, my opa had a story about being run over by a cart and falling into a ditch, but this is hardly the place to go into that. Anyway, I`ve waffled on a bit too much there.

The scenario itself could begin with the German invasion, and culminate in Operation Market Garden, or possibly a bit after that.


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	16-11-1999 01:19									#7
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If you need some info about the dutch resistance I cloud ask my neighbour...
She used to smuggle all kinds of stuff(those kinds and those kinds...you know...) across the dutch-belgium border during the time.

Would you need new unit icons or so?

Hendrik the Great

	16-11-1999 03:45									#8
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Asking your neighbour is your decision, not mine. It could be interesting to learn what kind of things the resistance got up to, though...

New unit icons: I don`t know, as I have got a fair collection. What would be handy to me is to find out what the Dutch army wore at that time, as I could edit an existing icon to fit the requirements.

Wonder icons would be nice (representations of famous Dutch buildings, like the Rijksmuseum and the like).

------------------
"I`m a rugged individualist, just like everyone else".

-Bart Simpson`s Guide to Life

	18-11-1999 04:13									#9
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This post has several reasons behind it:

1) To keep the post near the top of the topic listings.

2) To attract attention to it by puttin the red folder by it`s name rather than just the boring yellow one.

3) To keep people interested in my scenario up to date. Which reminds me...

I`ve found three types of planes used by the Dutch air force during the war: Fokker D.21, Fokker G.1 and Fokker T.5. Are there any others I should include?

I found a pretty entensive case study on Holland during the war on university lecturer`s site which is proving helpful. It doesn`t contain much on military ops, which is what I`m more interested in.

Can`t find any examples of Dutch army clothing. I did find a photo of a Dutch marine in New Guinea, but it was black and white, which helped very little. And I don`t think that the marines would be representative of the Dutch army as a whole.

Anyone with any info, please tell me!

	18-11-1999 06:50									#10
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I think that the scenario could be in two parts, the invasion by the Germans and the liberation by the Canadian Army. The same map could be used, but 2 scenarios. There was some very interesting fighting from September 1944 on, starting with the Market-Garden operation, clearing the Scheldt estuary, especially the Walcharen operation, the V-1's and 2's and the German threats to flood the polder lands.

	19-11-1999 02:16									#11
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Yea, I read that the Canadians played a big part in the Liberation of Holland, but I think I`ll have them represented under the British (or I might go for an Allies civ rather than just Britain).

Two parts for the invasion and the liberation? There`s a whole bit inbetween that I want to cover! Market Garden will obviously be a main point of the scenario (see if you can succeed)!

Hendrik and Allard: Are you still there?

	19-11-1999 21:30									#12
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I can't speak for Allard but I'm still here...
I just ran out of things to say. Sometimes it even happens to me

I happened to be in the city today and I tried finding books, images or whatever about dutch forces in that time. It's really hard to fing anything useful.

I have to do some thinking about this because I'm kind of low on ideas in the moment. My next scenario is taking up most of my time I'm willing to spend on civ a day.

But I wont forget you.

Hendrik the Great

	20-11-1999 10:05									#13
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OK Hendrik, fair enough. I`ve had some success looking around the internet, and had a reasonable bit of success. A found a poster encouraging young Dutch men to join the army, and I copied the army uniform from that. Other than that, I haven`t found anything new.

	20-11-1999 02:53									#14
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I am still here
First some data. North East Polder was made in 1942 (apparently during the war. Quite strange they did it then, I didn't know that). Flevoland East only in 57 and Flevoland West in 1968. Flevoland is the big thing in the "middle", norht east polder is on the north east of Flevoland.
In 1930 Wieringermeer was poldered (east of Den Helder, under the Afsluitdijk). For the rest all polders were done.
Actually. to be short all was there in 40 except the big ones in the Ijsselmeer.

I don't know exactly the Dutch uniform, but I could watch the beginning of "Soldaat van Oranje" again and then I'll let you know what uniforms they wore. It was pretty old-fashioned anyway..

I don't know about the planes we had, but according to my grandfather they were extremely primitive planes compared to those high-tech German planes. A lot of planes were also shot down while still on the ground. There were however some succesful air-offensives (at the Grebbeberg), and the adaption of the "hu-bo-bé" (huisje-boompje-beestje = house, tree, animal) technique, which means flying extremely low to not be discovered also worked extraordinarely well.
In my village (Bergen, near Alkmaar) was a very important military airport and there they did a trick with building fake-fighters while hiding the real ones in the forest. So the Germans bombed the fake ones and were then followed and shot down by the real ones.
In my village by the way, two important writers, Ed du Perron and Menno Ter Braak, lived and they killed themselves when we capitulated.

As for the resistance. It was mostly a matter of stealing "distributiebonnen" (foodvouchers), hiding Jews, students (who refused to sign a contract of not resisting Germany), labour forces not willing to work in Germany and crashed pilots (and smuggle them back to England). Rarely Germans were being killed by the resistance, cause if they were, whole villages were shot.

Perhaps it's better to continue this discussion via email (my new email is a.h.s.hofelt@student.tn.tudelft.nl).

	23-11-1999 21:03									#15
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Remember not to add too many units for construction or it will be too complicated to play.
Keep it interesting, but keep it simple.
Too much diversity will make amateurs bored and your .scn won't succeed.

	24-11-1999 04:05									#16
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OK Allard, we`ll do that.

	24-11-1999 17:35									#17
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I'm back!

I have been thinking and I thought if it might not be possible to include the bunkers that Holland had. Especially the ones on the cost and at the border with germany.
I'm not sure about the ones on the border, there probally weren't many but I would include the costal bunkers and fortifications that either already existed or were built in the time of occupation. It would become more difficult to undertake a successfull landing from the sea at certain locations. You could also add coastal guns that can attack ships.

So, how is the progress going?

Hendrik the Great

	25-11-1999 01:38									#18
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Good to see that you`re with us, Hendrik!

Progress on the scenario is going well. As you can see from the posts that I`ve put up, I`ve found a lot about Holland during the war, including (and this is the jackpot as far as I`m concerned); complete armed forces lists for the Dutch military at the beginning of the invasion. Every man, tank, plane, A.A battery etc. is on this website I visited (I forget the address, but I`ll find it again)!

Your point about the bunkers and coastal fortifications is a good one. Infact, there are the remains of a German gun turret near the village where my grandparents used to live (Zoutelande, in Walcheren) and I did think about this. Perhaps the fortifications could be appear as the Germans capture Dutch coastal cities, or they might appear by events. As I`ve found out from Allard, I`ll have to create the Noord-Oost Polder by events, which should prove interesting, to say the least!

I look forward to any more contributions from you!

	05-12-1999 23:14									#19
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Hello Paul, I am back.
Sorry for being idle in the last two weeks, I hade to study a lot because of school tests I really needed to get a good grade in.

But they are all over now so I can start thinking about other things.

Will you include an event about the dutch royal family? I.e. that they established an exil government in London.

How about making an event about the Cultur Kammer with Seyss Inquart? ( I hope I got that name right...).
Do you know that the Luftwaffe actually attacked from the sea and not land? They flew over the whole of Holland and the dutch military staff thought they were going to England only to discover that the aircraft turned around just behind the horizon and then came back and destroyed nearly all dutch aircraft on the ground.
It might be one the the small details you might want to add. just let the aircraft come from the sea.

More in the coming days...

Hendrik the Great

	06-12-1999 01:04									#20
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Posting on St. Nicolas day!! Jippie!
Of course, all non-dutch have no idea what I'm talking about

	06-12-1999 19:52									#21
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Hi Allard! Of course I know what that means!
Afterall, who doesn't know St. Nicolas and de Zwarte Piet?
But then again, I think I don't count because I can almost consider myself half a dutchman myself because I've beem living here for nearly 3 years and am even born in Schiedam.

So, how are you two progressing on the scenario? Or should I better ask Paul?

Hendrik the Great

	06-12-1999 21:27									#22
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Allard,

We have that here in Germany too. It's called "Nikolaustag".

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	07-12-1999 03:15									#23
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Don`t worry, I`m still here. I`ve got a lot on my plate at the moment, what with exams, and the fact that I bought TOT on Saturday. I will win that SciFi scenario.

To tell the truth, works been slow on the scenario at the moment. I`ve got the cities placed, and I`m working on trying to create an urban terrain using the mountain graphics (similar to what Nemo did on "Red Front").

I`ve done a bit of swotting up on the subject, so I have a good idea of what you mean by the Cultur Kammer, and the Dutch royal family in exile. Don`t now how I`d get the Germans to atack from the sea though.

Hope you all had a happy St. Nicholas` Day! I`ve got to wait until the 25th for mine, lucky b******s

------------------
"I`m a rugged individualist, just like everyone else".

-Bart Simpson`s Guide to Life

	07-12-1999 03:26									#24
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Same for GD of Luxembourg-it is called Kléesercher's Daach!

	07-12-1999 03:27									#25
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-stotter,stotter-
[This message has been edited by Overdrive (edited December 06, 1999).]

	08-12-1999 00:11									#26
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Hmmm...how to let them come from the sea?

You could simply place them there above the sea with enough movement left to them to be able to reach a friendly city or airbase.
->They have to be placed very carefully and the germans would have to move first.
Solution: The germans did move first in reality.

You could put one or more ships with aircraft capability in the sea.
->But that's not very realistic because the only german aircraft carrier ever built never entered service.
Solution: The carrier would have to be disbanded after a few turns to avoid totally unrealistic situations.(Make it obsolete?)

Give the aircraft a range of two or three so they can stay in the air long enough until the germans take a city they can go to.
->Then however they could only attack once and would be very vulnerable for enemy planes. There were hardly any german planes lost in combat after the attack on Holland.
Solution: Give them high defense or don't give the dutch many planes or none at all.

You could some terrain in the sea that looks like water but with an airbase on it so the planes have a place to start from.
->The planes might stay longer than you want them to, ship might attack the islands and destroy the planes, a bit unrealistic...
Solution: Change the terrain back to 0cean after one or two turns. Use move unit command to get the planes into dutch airspace.(But that's a bit bugy I think).

That are about all the ways I could think of in the moment.

Ahh, you bought ToT, too?
Do you like it? I can't decide.

Hendrik the Great

	12-12-1999 23:01									#27
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Hi Paul

There is a boardgame called Europa which replays WWII in battlion/brigade/division scale. There are several parts and all of them replays the WWII through 1939-1945 (I think there even is a Spanish Revolution Part). I own among others the Part that represent the German attack on the Low Countries and France in 1940. There has been ALOT of research in this project so I guess unit strenght and locations are as good as one would ever could hope for.

If you're interested I can copy the Army locations and strenght of the Dutch and German formations. I could also copy the map if you would like too. And if you would like the info for the Belgian, France, British Expeditionary Force and Swiss army I could fix that too.

I also own the part covering the attack on Norway if anyone is interested. Plenty of detail there as well as the Swedish setup before the outbreak of the war.

I also own a hypothetical German attack on Spain. Here all Spanish and Portuguese forces are shown.

I wish you good luck in the scenario making. If I can be of any help please don't hesitate to ask for it. There can't be too many scenarios for Civ2.

	13-12-1999 03:50									#28
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Hi Steen,

Any info you`ve got on this subject would be greatly appreciated, especially on military placements and strategies (the Christmas holidays are coming up so I`ll have plenty of free time to work on this project). Specifically info on the Dutch, Belgian, German armies and the BEF.

E-mail it to me as soon as you can.

Thanks!