12-10-2001 00:32									#1
	Subjugation Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In my first full game (as the Hive), I found to my dismay that Miriam and her zealots were on a connected continent. War soon erupted and I was kicking her butt good (with her trying to extort me with threats the entire time). When I finally took New Jerusalem and she had only one small base left she admitted defeat and begged to be subjugated and spared. I agreed (to humiliate her). My question is: does that last for the remainder of the game or can she try and rise up against me again? Morgan came along shortly after and told me I was foolish to trust her (or vice-versa...can't recall). And I'm guessing that if I change my mind and finish her off then my reputation will take a big hit.

Also, I just got needlejets. How do I get them to far-off places without losing them because they ran out of fuel?

	12-10-2001 01:04									#2
	Remove this text

quote: Also, I just got needlejets. How do I get them to far-off places without losing them because they ran out of fuel?

-Maybe if you used the "patrol" order and specified the far-away destination as a waypoint;
-Maybe if you moved it manually until almost out of fuel, then put it on "auto" (or is it "on alert"?); the next turn you catch it before it gets its "auto" turn and repeat, . . . until you get there;
-Then you give all you tech to Miriam as a penalty for cheating.

	12-10-2001 01:19									#3
	Remove this text

You are asking, will a subjugated Miriam have an uprising? Yes. And as the other posters can probably agree, Miriam is very prone to backstabbing, even in situations where that signals certain destruction.
She's a nut, and most players (like me) have Miriam for lunch at sight.

	12-10-2001 01:44									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Just wanted to say, I've never seen a submissive backstab their master. I've heard it can happen if said submissive gets too powerful, but I've never seen it. And Miriam, because she provokes me, becomes submissive quite frequently.

	12-10-2001 01:50									#5
	Remove this text

quote: and most players (like me) have Miriam for lunch at sight

First of all, I generalized too much in that post - some players have her for lunch. But she's hated, anyway.

quote: Just wanted to say, I've never seen a submissive backstab their master. I've heard it can happen if said submissive gets too powerful, but I've never seen it. And Miriam, because she provokes me, becomes submissive quite frequently.

What lvl of difficulty do you play, Ironwood? Just asking...

	12-10-2001 02:00									#6
	Hmmm Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller -Maybe if you used the "patrol" order and specified the far-away destination as a waypoint; -Maybe if you moved it manually until almost out of fuel, then put it on "auto" (or is it "on alert"?); the next turn you catch it before it gets its "auto" turn and repeat, . . . until you get there; -Then you give all you tech to Miriam as a penalty for cheating.

How did I cheat? If I've committed a no-no please tell me what it was so I know.

Does anyone here ever play as the Believers?

	12-10-2001 02:17									#7
	Suffering from ads?

conquerd submissive sometimes attack you by accident when are stacked with some other faction they want to attack.

yes i sometimes paky the believers.

Design a needlejet colony pod. Fly it to a land base spot near maximum rage (two moves) from you frontier base. Buld a base to use as an air base. Make pact with another faction on the flight path and land at their bases.

	12-10-2001 02:59									#8
	Got spare money?

I think the "cheat" would be using a bug to give the needlejets unlimited range. To get a needlejet to a far off place you need to give them some bases or airstrips OR make a pact with someone in the area to use their bases as way stations ( note that if they break the pact your units will be returned to your territory)

Easy ways to make your own landing sites

1. Send a drop former to build an airbase-- then use the airbase to drop the former again and again until you create a string of airbases.

2. Use a drop colony pod or pods in the same fashion
3. Ditto an air colony pod
4. Construct sea bases as way stations

Generally I like base solution (its an immediate landing site)but they may be probe targets so there are times when a drop former or two building airbases is just the ticket.

	12-10-2001 08:10									#9
	Re: Hmmm Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by civcop Does anyone here ever play as the Believers?

Lots of us play as the Believers. Good attacking bonus (+25%) makes her one of the few factions that can take on an early Sparta with their disciplined units.

Build command ceters and bioenhancement centers (or better yet, the Command Nexus and the Cyborg Factory), then change to fundy and watch your enemies cower.

Sure, research sucks, but you should be probing the techs and conquering bases anyway.

G.

	12-10-2001 08:28									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I started my first game as builder Miriam yesterday, it's a joy to be a believer. The bases look nice amoung the forests.
I'm using a Green fundie and have an alliance with Dee and Morgan, the Believers are okay, as long as you dont have to look at their leader.

	12-10-2001 10:44									#11
	Re: Hmmm Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by civcop How did I cheat? If I've committed a no-no please tell me what it was so I know.

Civcop, sorry if it sounded like I thought you were cheating; I did not mean to imply anything of the sort.

(unless those tricks really work and you've been using them.)


Playing Miriam is OK once you get going; that tech delay is a bit of a pain. I've been playing a lot of Yang (who gets some of the same with the low energy) and Miriam recently, and after playing those slow developing games, it is absolutely incredible to play the University or the Cyborgs - the tech seems so easy to get; you don't even have time to use some of it before it is obsolete!

	12-10-2001 11:45									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Johnd, Not only does putting the jet on automatic prevent a crash, but it also works with copters. I am able to bring a scout copter home even if I find it 50 tiles or more away from a base. I know this is a cheat, but it is fun anyway.

Also, for some strange reason, the AI often screws up and leaves a jet too far from a base when on automatic. I don't know why, but it happens. I then don't consider it a cheat to get that jet back to base.

Ned

	12-10-2001 13:41									#13
	Man civcop...what kinda 'Hiver' are you? Suffering from ads?

Hey man no offense!

You should smashed her when you had the chance man! Especially playing as the Hive! Take her out and rule that continent all by yourself, you don't need a Bible-Thumper on 'holy' hive territory! Your Hive police state shouldn't be tainted by her faction even associating with yours!!!

........(sorry, I've been messed with by Miriam so many times I'm a little pissed at her....actually, I HATE her!!!)

	12-10-2001 14:05									#14
	Re: Subjugation Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by civcop My question is: can she try and rise up against me again?

YES!

As I rarely play against Miriam, I don't know from experience how likely she is to revolt, but I'll take everyone else's word for it!
Cha Dawn quite often revolts against me - how he can go from a submissive pact one turn to attacking my base next turn without canelling the pact I don't know, but that's another story!
And Roze, while not actually revolting, usually sends in her probes, which pisses me off enough to restart teh war and beat her into submission again!

	12-10-2001 20:48									#15
	I'm a Believer - or - I'm Miriam, Fly Me Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by civcop Does anyone here ever play as the Believers?

Playing as Believers is great if you start out with neighbors to borrow tech from and eventually subjugate.

As an opponent I can't quite figure her out. Sometimes she will fight bitterly to the last smoldering base (to nobody's benefit). Last night, she surrendered after I sunk a transport and slipped an IoD into a remote, empty size 1 seabase (with her 8 main bases much too far away for me to harm). Go figure.

But she is generally a lousy pactmate. Too often you must deal with her probing for tech, building seabases right next to your landmass, and framing you in probe actions against other pactmates. Beeg bummer.

AND

Sea bases make excellent forward airstrips, since the AI rarely (never???) builds foil probe teams. Do some terraforming for minerals that support a couple AAA defenders and a foil probe to buy off attackers, and you're in like Flint.

	12-10-2001 23:48									#16
	Support Apolyton

Today the Believers were actually of use to me.
I sort of tried to play One-City-Challenge as Morgan, but somehow I just conquered Santiago's only base right next to me, but I sticked with the two bases to the end, to make it at least interesting.
Now, Miriam was useful, because she surrounded my fledgling pair of bases with practically no military defense in exchange of lots of tech and dough. She was my pactmate to the end, so was Zak as I ran Fund-Free Marker-Knowledge, and Eudaimonic in the end.
So, she's not such a bad nuisance, at least all the times.

	12-10-2001 23:48									#17
	Ha! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Johndmuller--no offense taken. No apology needed but I'll accept it anyway

I tend toward being the builder type but so far I've been using the Hive and it seems to be working pretty well. Of course, I'm playing at citizen level. I started a new game because I felt I'd done sloppy work with my formers in the original (saved it though) and Miriam was right beside me again! Lal too. Lal showed up upon our initial meeting with a severe case of attitude, threatening me over some stupid tech that he wanted. I finished wiping out the believers and am in the process of doing same to Lal's bunch of hippees. In my games thus far, the other factions haven't caused me any real problems.

	13-10-2001 04:10									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia Today the Believers were actually of use to me. I sort of tried to play One-City-Challenge as Morgan, but somehow I just conquered Santiago's only base right next to me, but I sticked with the two bases to the end, to make it at least interesting. Now, Miriam was useful, because she surrounded my fledgling pair of bases with practically no military defense in exchange of lots of tech and dough. She was my pactmate to the end, so was Zak as I ran Fund-Free Marker-Knowledge, and Eudaimonic in the end. So, she's not such a bad nuisance, at least all the times.

That sounds almost exactly like my first OCC, which also ended up a 2CC. In my case Miriam overran the world because I kept her supplied with advanced weapons techs.

Miriam isn't really all that bad, she just has an unhealty obsession with Fundie.

	14-10-2001 01:49									#19
	Remove this text

And she wants all your EC's and techs. But I was generating more science with my first base then Zak with his continent-spread in total, and I got hunks of joules from FM, so she was happy.
But if she would of turned against me... I ended up, as usual, transcending to victory.

	14-10-2001 03:53									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia What lvl of difficulty do you play, Ironwood? Just asking...

Right now, Librarian, since I haven't played for a while. I haven't played extensively at Transcend, but have (and won) at Thinker. Maybe it happens more often at Transcend? Maybe I just haven't subjugated many agressive idologically opposed persons at higher levels.

	14-10-2001 12:44									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well all my serious backstabbings have occurred when playing Thinker and Transcend. It's quite relative to the difficult, I think it is one of the things that make the level more difficult then the lower ones.

	15-10-2001 06:49									#22
	Re: Subjugation Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by civcop Also, I just got needlejets. How do I get them to far-off places without losing them because they ran out of fuel?

You may also want to consider turning off the game option that directs planes and choppers back to their bases at the beginning of the turn after you've moved them out into the open. I believe it is under the automated options list. This way you have two full turns of movement to reach a distance safe haven as opposed to one turn of movement and one turn of flying back to the base it just left last turn. This also allows you to perpetrate suicide chopper runs from vast distances because you only lose 15% (?) of the choppers health each turn it is outside of a base giving you 6 turns to reach its destination. More than enough on a standard sized map.

	15-10-2001 07:59									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

To wxpand on what WE said . . . i would always turn off that automatic "Return to base " function. Its annoying and will usually send a plane in exactly the opposite direction to that which you wanted

	16-10-2001 00:57									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

WE: Choppers loose 30% health each turn they expend their last movement point in the open. You can get 3 turns of movement and still have 10% of your health left.

	16-10-2001 01:19									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

30%??? I don't remember it being that high. Hmmm...

	16-10-2001 01:23									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes, I also remember it as being 30% each time. Still, enough to get your chopper quite far across the open land or sea . . .

	16-10-2001 08:05									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

And, if you use the "automatic" cheat, copters will actually gain health on the way. Ned