12-10-2001 03:26									#1
	What is more important, MP or good AI? Suffering from ads?

Answer the question. Would you rather have crappy ai and good mp or great ai and no mp?

I'm not defending firaxis's exclusion of multiplayer, nor am I saying that multiplayer is unimportant. I'm just trying to see what people feel is worth spending more time on developing.

	12-10-2001 03:30									#2
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MP.

	12-10-2001 03:31									#3
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Neither answer is acceptable and the company was large enough to be developing both, particularly if they weren't making a golf game at the same time.

	12-10-2001 03:33									#4
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I'm asking for a preference. If you had to choose one, which would it be? I don't care whether or not Firaxis could have done both (though I believe that they easily could have).

	12-10-2001 03:34									#5
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AI all the way.

	12-10-2001 03:34									#6
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I voted 'MP' more for political reasons (if there can be such a thing concerning a game).

In actuality, good AI will benefit ALL players of the game, while MP caters to the gaming needs of a smaller group. Though for that smaller group, functional MP is probably more important than AI, since the MP game mode is usually their escape from crappy AI.

	12-10-2001 03:35									#7
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I guess I'll give my answer that I have stated ad nauseum previously in this forum.

Good AI is impossible given current techonology. It just can't be done presently with any game that has a whole bunch of variables.

I think a better way to have worded this poll would be: spending time in making the AI as strong as possible.

	12-10-2001 03:36									#8
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AI, seeing as how the majority of civ players are SP players. This is still no excuse for Firaxis not to include MP or charge for it in the future however.

	12-10-2001 03:38									#9
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I do, which is why I refuse to answer your question The release should have been delayed.

I find the game released as SP only offensive when we know they fully intend to produce a multiplayer addition. While the Multiplayer was getting done properly the others could have been testing the AI more and making it better. However a game with MP option but an useless computer AI would be unplayable except when all nations are player controlled, making it not worth buying at all.

	12-10-2001 03:39									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton I guess I'll give my answer that I have stated ad nauseum previously in this forum. Good AI is impossible given current techonology. It just can't be done presently with any game that has a whole bunch of variables.

Good AI is subjective, but for most it does not necessarily mean perfect and perfectly human-like AI. Good AI would be challenging, interesting, and not so predictable.

	12-10-2001 03:40									#11
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humans will always "debunk" the AI and beat them every time after you figure out how it works. human players are completely versatile in every aspect of the game.

	12-10-2001 03:43									#12
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IMO all the efforts should be first around the AI. Then, they should focus on the AI. Later, they should work on the AI a little more, and finally, test the AI some more. Then they should sell the game in the USA and Europe at the same time, and afterwards, they are free to upload MP patches, language patches, expansion packs, whatever.

	12-10-2001 04:01									#13
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AI. Mainly because I thought CIV was a better single player game.

	12-10-2001 04:07									#14
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No doubt, AI!

MP is awkward, you have to coordinate times to continue a game and then it is so slow to wait for other people to take their turn, and then there are disconnections. Personally I think MP TBS is overrated!

So AI all the way!

	12-10-2001 04:43									#15
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after 2 weeks of playing, when you have beat the diety level AI several times consistently, you will be BEGGING for MP.

	12-10-2001 05:19									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Jingo after 2 weeks of playing, when you have beat the diety level AI several times consistently, you will be BEGGING for MP.

If I do manage to repeatedly beat deity, sure I'll want MP. But if I have crappy AI, I'll get fed up of the game so quickly that I'll return it right back to the store. That's what happened to CTP 2.

I'm just trying to point out that AI (and other core game elements) take precedence over MP, scenarios, editors, and other things based on the game.

If you feel MP is crucial to the game, then no one's making you buy it. Wait until MP comes out and then you can buy it. Think of it as if the game was delayed just for you. It's your money, it's your choice.

	12-10-2001 05:24									#17
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AI. I voted for this coz this is a game. And in a game, u have to beat the computer. MP is a complement. BUT would be fine to have included MP support.
I dont like this

	12-10-2001 05:36									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Jingo after 2 weeks of playing, when you have beat the diety level AI several times consistently, you will be BEGGING for MP.

NOT LIKELY. I read in an interview that noone in the Firaxis team has beaten the Deity level yet, and they made the game. Sure, you may beat it once in two weeks if you are very lucky, but it will take you so much longer to beat it consistently.

	12-10-2001 05:43									#19
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the civ2 manual says "no one can beat the Diety level AI consistenly".

enough said.

	12-10-2001 05:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jingo after 2 weeks of playing, when you have beat the diety level AI several times consistently, you will be BEGGING for MP.

Thing is you think you might beat it that quickly but do you think everyone else will be able to do that too?

	12-10-2001 05:49									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jingo the civ2 manual says "no one can beat the Diety level AI consistenly". enough said.

But they haven't said the same thing about Civ 3:

"Right now, no one at Firaxis can beat the AI at Deity level, though we certainly expect players to find ways to do so within a few months of the game being released. " - Soren Johnson from the Game Spy interview.

	12-10-2001 05:52									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Shiva Thing is you think you might beat it that quickly but do you think everyone else will be able to do that too?

It's also done using a specific strategy (read: ICS) used to exploit the AI. If you were a new player, I think very few would have been able to come up with this strat without previous experience or communication with other players via internet or what have you.

	12-10-2001 06:07									#23
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ai is never a match for a human. multiplayer. never. multiplayer. it's just a simple fact. multiplayer. a human enemy can suprise you in ways you could never even concieve. multiplayer. take the civ2 ai. multiplayer. the civ2 ai would never rush you with 20 horsemen before you even had bronzeworking. multiplayer. they just didnt. multiplayer. they werent even coordinated. multiplayer. so maybe the civ3 ai is coordinated. multiplayer. maybe it thinks about attacks. multiplayer. maybe it thinks about trade, alliances, and diplomacy. multiplayer. eventually youre going to notice its flaws. multiplayer. and exploit them. multiplayer. you do it to people all the time. multiplayer. you find out where they are weak, and stab them there. multiplayer. but humans can "patch" themselves in realtime. multiplayer. the ai wont learn from it's mistakes. multiplayer. it just wont. multiplayer. it has a default strategy, perhaps a bunch of them. multiplayer. but theyre all default. multiplayer.

multiplayer.

	12-10-2001 06:31									#24
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If the AI is to be really good, the system specs would require 512MB of RAM and 1GB of virtual memory, with a recommended 1GHZ+ processor. Looking at the current system specs, the AI MAY be adequate for most of you SP players who will seldom venture into the upper levels of the game and find that beating the game at prince is a major accomplishment.

	12-10-2001 06:48									#25
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No offense, but that's not much of a choice. That's like asking me if I would rather get shot with a gun or plunge to my death.

	12-10-2001 06:53									#26
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AI, it's been said that no one at firaxis has been able to beat the game on diety level yet

	12-10-2001 06:56									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton It's also done using a specific strategy (read: ICS) used to exploit the AI. If you were a new player, I think very few would have been able to come up with this strat without previous experience or communication with other players via internet or what have you.

Yes but there will be no ICS in Civ3. And it will take most of the people more than two weeks two beat the AI on the highest setting which is what I was saying to him.

	12-10-2001 06:56									#28
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Neither, I voted for Customization in the original "What's the most important feature in Civ3" done last year. It came in a close second to AI, MP wasn't in the top 3, if I recall.

MarkG, can you find that poll again and post its results?

	12-10-2001 07:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower AI, it's been said that no one at firaxis has been able to beat the game on diety level yet

They are game designers, not game players. If they beat the game at diety, it would point out their failure to create a really strong AI. Thus subconciously they make a series of minor errors in game play which prevents them from winning the game. We on the other hand are game players. It is our sworn mission to defeat the game. We will find every weakness in the AI. We will defeat the game by Thanksgiving.

	12-10-2001 07:31									#30
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OK for one, the majority of people who play civ will NOT beat it on diety, ever, and the majority will ALSO not play MP.
For two, Uberkrux, thats really annoying (btw, wtf is jingo)
For three, i almost never finish a single game in two weeks, and maybe you have it a lot easier and can spend all your time on it, but with other people who play less than me (which again is the majority) it takes longer than two weeks just to finish the game. of course they will not beat diety in two weeks. i doubt you or anyone will. Maybe thanksgiving, but not two weeks. Period. BTW, what is so wrong with being able to beat diety after a month. After all, you are obsessed with the original 2, youve been reading up on all the features here, so you know a lot about how to play the game, and you just happen to be really good at this kind of game. If it takes you a month to beat it if you play a lot, i congratulate firaxis. It will take me much longer, nonetheless, as will most people. You have got t take into account that firaxis is a company looking to earn money, not please its fans, or be a complete goody-two-shoes marketer, or be the next Jesus of Morality. theye a ****ing company. lose the high-'n-mighty attitude, my friend.