17-10-2001 02:36									#61
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Fiera,
I think I mentioned earlier - to about 100 BC. I want it far enough so that any Punic Wars would definitely be over, yet not so far that the dominant power grows so strong that it stretches beyond this region. So I figure 100 is a good ballpark for that.

Aside from having Greece in there as a direct political involvement, its also good to have for trading reasons. For the same reason it would be nice in theory to have the whole Med, but then that quickly leads to too many cities, civs and so on.

Himilco was Carthaginian - I think its estimated he did his voyage around 475 BC. He didn't so much discover anything as rediscover, since something seems to have happened in the 500s to the Phoenicians in Iberia, so if they had a route to England and colonies along the way, it was all broken for 50 or more years.

Another important factor is that with the rise of the use of iron, tin wasn't so vital any more, though it still was definitely worth trading.

The Massalian route didn't completely replace the Tartessian route AFAIK, but it did open up competition.

	17-10-2001 03:04									#62
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1st treaty Rome-Carthage (508BC?)
Rome & allies (Massalia) are not allowed to sail to West.
Argantonios was known for being very philo-hellenic.

After the Battle of Artemision (Alicante coast) won by Greeks, they kept the colony of Hemeroskopion, but they lose Mainake (near Malaka, Avienus said it was connected to Tartessos by road)

PS: I forgot to mention my source in my previous post: "Tartessos, la ciudad sin historia" by Juan Maluquer de Motes.

	17-10-2001 03:15									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Fiera, I think I mentioned earlier - to about 100 BC. I want it far enough so that any Punic Wars would definitely be over, yet not so far that the dominant power grows so strong that it stretches beyond this region. So I figure 100 is a good ballpark for that. Aside from having Greece in there as a direct political involvement, its also good to have for trading reasons. For the same reason it would be nice in theory to have the whole Med, but then that quickly leads to too many cities, civs and so on.

Just my opinion, but I reckon you're half way between two logical scopes, either a Western Mediterranean deadlock between Rome and Carthago, or a full-blown Mediterranean Conquest scenario, in the like of the original MicroProse Rise of Rome, or Imperium Romanum, by BeBro. As it stands, the scope you chose seems rather "undefined" to me.

You definitely should leave Tartessos aside since they seem out of scope either way.

	17-10-2001 04:45									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Another important factor is that with the rise of the use of iron, tin wasn't so vital any more, though it still was definitely worth trading.

Yep, this anecdote comes to support it somehow: the trade with the Cassiterides was constant, and so highly prized that a Phoenician captain, finding his ship followed by a Roman vessel, preferred running it upon the rocks to letting a rival nation learn the secret of how the tin-producing coast might be approached in safety. I've read this anecdote more than once but now I don't remember the author, I think it's by Strabo.

	17-10-2001 13:19									#65
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I made a trip to a different library today, and learned many new things. First, a little show and tell:

	17-10-2001 13:35									#66
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Now, explanations of these maps.

The first map I thought was interesting in showing how much the Cadiz - Seville area has changed over time. If you're looking for "Tartessos City", you're not gonna find it in the ocean! This reminds me of something Fiera said recently, namely that "Tartessos City" should be on the Guadalquivir River. I think there's no way to know which river was being talked about, and its equally or more likely to be the Rio Tinto river, if there was such a thing at all.

Apparently the Ebro River delta also didn't exist back then - I've been changing my map.

The second map is the first I've seen to even dare place native Iberian towns on a map. I'm guessing these date from about 200 BC, but that's better than nothing. Does this give us a better idea which ones were around 300 years earlier?

The third map I think solves my problem of what civs to add to Iberia, if any. The Celtic book its from talks about an Atlantic culture in Iberia, France and Britain that shared more with each other than with nearer neighbors. The thing keeping the continuity alive was the tin and other mineral trade. Only slowly did the Celts push them out. These were the borders roughly around 500 BC. So I'm gonna add them, but I don't know what to call them, since their name is lost to history. I'm thinking maybe Galacians though, a name applied to people both in the Galacia part of Spain and groups in France.

Another map I saw has nearly the exact same cultural boundaries, even though this one is only showing "core zones".

	17-10-2001 13:47									#67
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"Just my opinion, but I reckon you're half way between two logical scopes, either a Western Mediterranean deadlock between Rome and Carthago, or a full-blown Mediterranean Conquest scenario, in the like of the original MicroProse Rise of Rome, or Imperium Romanum, by BeBro. As it stands, the scope you chose seems rather "undefined" to me."

Fiera,
You're talking about the end date, right? I only want to make sure the scenario lasts long enough to resolve the Rome Cartago battle for West Med dominance. In our world, that ended around 150 BC, but I want to leave some time in case in an alternate world it takes a little longer to determine a winner. Once you get much further than 100 BC in our world, the Romans start spilling over the map I've got.

By the way, Waku, another thing I learned today is that the Greek place called Hemeroskopion really wasn't worth much. Basically a seasonal camp, not even a village. I don't know why it shows up on so many maps. Maybe cos its one they know the location of, whereas the bigger Greek colonies in that area still haven't been found yet (as the second map I've posted ably points out). In fact, it turns out that many or most ruin sites in Iberia haven't been seriously excavated yet, so much remains to be learned.

One thing I thought very interesting that I found out today concerns the story of Kolaios. He's the Greek mentioned by Herodotus who accidentally was carried by a storm past Phoenician defenses to Tartessos, and came back with a huge fortune. The thing I found interesting is that he built a famous statue in his home island of Samos to give thanks to his luck. It turns out that Herodotus and other famous Greeks saw this statue with their own eyes, since it was in Greece itself and stayed around a while. That to me goes a long way to verify his story.

	17-10-2001 14:37									#68
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Many posts to answer. Lets go step by step

quote: Originally posted by Harlan Jay Bee, I will make the Cordoba change - you sure though, that that was the name way back then? That would be really incredible consistency.

Sure. Not the only example: Toletum/Toledo or Pallantia/Palencia to cite two others that have appeared already.

quote: Also, you mentioned something about having a Tartessos city list - I'm not interested in the whole thing, but which ones were clearly the biggest (that we know of)? Or, to put it another way, how would you change that part of the map, keeping in mind that I can't have two cities only a few miles from each other.

The short list I already posted was in that direction. Given the space constraint you may have to eliminate Ategua y probably Hasta Regia. keep the others and you're done with this.

	17-10-2001 14:50									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Waku I'll try to quote a book I've got with me: Economic decadence? before 500BC: -Tartessian controlled tin traffic from Britain (sea route). after 500BC: -Massalia discovered new tin routes thru the Gaul. -Gadir (admiral Himilco) discovered the sea route to Britain. Destroyed by Gadir? there would be some rivalry between them. Destroyed by Carthage? easy solution but at that time Carthage didn't show much interest in the peninsula. Destroyed by Celtics quick raids wouldn't make it disappear (celtic names among later turdetan kings) internal decadence -lack of power after Argantonios long reign JB: they're only theories

I know, I know, but since your views are very logical , I fully agree with them. As I posted elsewhere, the possibility I have read to be considered more realistic was not a war scenario but the economical mess following the fall of Tyre. The tin market changed hands and put Massilia on top of it. Tartessos would declined rapidly, giving rise to the Turds and Turdetanians, two full-Iberian tribes.

	17-10-2001 17:24									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan The first map I thought was interesting in showing how much the Cadiz - Seville area has changed over time. If you're looking for "Tartessos City", you're not gonna find it in the ocean! This reminds me of something Fiera said recently, namely that "Tartessos City" should be on the Guadalquivir River. I think there's no way to know which river was being talked about, and its equally or more likely to be the Rio Tinto river, if there was such a thing at all.

In fact, this map adds probability to Hispalis (ancient Seville) being Tartessos City.

quote: The third map I think solves my problem of what civs to add to Iberia, if any. The Celtic book its from talks about an Atlantic culture in Iberia, France and Britain that shared more with each other than with nearer neighbors. The thing keeping the continuity alive was the tin and other mineral trade. Only slowly did the Celts push them out. These were the borders roughly around 500 BC. So I'm gonna add them, but I don't know what to call them, since their name is lost to history. I'm thinking maybe Galacians though, a name applied to people both in the Galacia part of Spain and groups in France.

Schulten calls these people the Oestrymnians. I have this name used in some other places, but I'm not sure whether Schulten was the first to use it. Tartessians are supposed to have traded tin with them.

	17-10-2001 17:33									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Fiera, You're talking about the end date, right? I only want to make sure the scenario lasts long enough to resolve the Rome Cartago battle for West Med dominance. In our world, that ended around 150 BC, but I want to leave some time in case in an alternate world it takes a little longer to determine a winner. Once you get much further than 100 BC in our world, the Romans start spilling over the map I've got.

Not only the end date, I was actually talking about the map you're gonna use too, sorry I didn't make it clear enough. I think if you're not going to include the whle Mediterranean, it's better to go ahead just with the Western Med, which is a "logical" division. Having Athenians, Spartans and Persians out will surely make things easier for you.

Also, I'd say that the battle for Western Med dominance was already resolved at 202 BC. Carthage wasn't a real menace for Rome thereafter, they were allowed to keep just a few ships and their power wasn't comparable to that of Rome. In the end, Rome chose to wipe Carthage out because they had inherited a sort of psychological fear to Carthaginians from the days of Hannibal, I guess...

	17-10-2001 18:51									#72
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Hemeroskopeion: as far as I can tell, there are no archeological data to support that a city of this name actually existed (sounds familiar?), that despite its localization being precisely described by the ancient texts. Same happens with Alonis and Akra Leuke. If something, the scholars believe they were probably not more than advanced posts, which basiucally agrees with the info posted by Harlan.


Kolaios of Samos.... his voyage occurred ca. 638 BC according to the ancient texts. Herodotus claims that when Kolaios arrived in Tartessos, this was an unknown port. However it's clear that the Phoenicians already knew about Tartessos in 638 BC, and Remains of Phocean pottery have been found in Tartessos that correspond to periods before 638 BC. It should be said however that this pottery could have been brought by the Phoenicians themselves and that Herodotus was referring to Kolaios as the first Greek to visit Tartessos (not the first foreigner). Still, the implication that the Samians were the first Greeks to reach Tartessos apparently contradicts many other theories. (I have been reading Herodotus lately, you know. .

In line with the above I have read that historians/archeologists thus raise serious doubts as to whether Kolaios actually visited Tartessos or another Western port. Regrettably my book mentions the controversy but does not explain anything beyond that. This deserves further investigation I think.

	17-10-2001 21:38									#73
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I got another celtic map, showing celtic, celtiberian and celtic mercenaries sites in Spain. unfortunately is too big to post it here, and now my pop is down. I'll post it you tomorrow if you're interested in.

	17-10-2001 23:10									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan ...Hemeroskopion really wasn't worth much. Basically a seasonal camp, not even a village. I don't know why it shows up on so many maps. Maybe cos its one they know the location of, whereas the bigger Greek colonies in that area still haven't been found yet

If somebody put it on a map because they identified it, the next people to print about that area will include it, regardless of how insignificant it might have been. As you suggest, until more important places can be positively located, the minor place will stay on the map. As a justification, the geographer leaves open the possibility of this providing a reference point for any future clues.

The down side is that many ancient and even more recent maps have duplicated locations simply because they appeared on a previous map. After centuries it turns out that the first map maker, who the others all copied, made something up. A famous example is the european efforts to map west africa. Just to fill blank areas, the first map makers made up geography - complete with names and descriptions! Later map makers had no better source material, so it was propogated. Anyway, there was supposedly a huge mountain range across Nigeria - not until the end of the 19th century did this range stop appearing on maps.

	18-10-2001 00:40									#75
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Regarding Kolaios,
I think its clear that he wasn't implied to be the first to discover Tartessos, but rather the first GREEK to discover Tartessos. Big difference. And yes, Phoenicians could and did trade Greek goods, and in fact most of the Greek goods found in Iberia are thought to have been traded by the Phoenicians, actually.

Also, he may not have been the first Greek either, but his main claim to fame was simply coming back with such a fortune - an ancient rags to riches story.

One reason Hemeroskopeion may get all the press is cos it was also a prominent cape, and thus figured prominently in all the peripluses of the time. I haven't been able to find anything else about the supposed largest Greek colony of Thurias in this area. So maybe, according to the below map, Alonae, was the Greek settlement in this area? Is that the same as the Alonis Jay Bee talks about?

"Schulten calls these people the Oestrymnians"

Lacking anything better, I guess I'll use that.

"In fact, this map adds probability to Hispalis (ancient Seville) being Tartessos City"

Perhaps Seville itself. What is known about that city's ancient history?

Prometheus, I'll take your map, and I still need help on knowing which cities are in or out - please more wisdom from our Spanish experts!

	18-10-2001 00:56									#76
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quote: Not only the end date, I was actually talking about the map you're gonna use too, sorry I didn't make it clear enough. I think if you're not going to include the whle Mediterranean, it's better to go ahead just with the Western Med, which is a "logical" division. Having Athenians, Spartans and Persians out will surely make things easier for you.

First, you're ignoring the trade ties between Greece and the West, which are vital. There actually were a number of military ties as well that easily could have been much more important if things went a little different. The Athenian attempt to conquer Syracuse, for instance. Or Pyrrhus's attempt to control Italy and Greece.

quote: Also, I'd say that the battle for Western Med dominance was already resolved at 202 BC. Carthage wasn't a real menace for Rome thereafter, they were allowed to keep just a few ships and their power wasn't comparable to that of Rome. In the end, Rome chose to wipe Carthage out because they had inherited a sort of psychological fear to Carthaginians from the days of Hannibal, I guess...

You're right that the last Punic War wasn't much of a fight. However, the main reason for it was because Carthage was rebounding so quickly and strongly. It was clear that soon they would be back to former strength.

By the way,
Here are some more things I learned looking at Harrison's Spain at the Dawn of History book (unfortunately I couldn't check it out).

Ullastret - one of the first and biggest towns in Spain, from about 700 to 200 BC. In very close symbiotic relationship with Emperion. The name sounds strange to me - is that the real name of the town, or just the name of the site?

Tivissa and Tarragona potential early towns. Tarrragona hard to say cos completely rebuilt in the Roman era.

Castulo was a big one, and Carmona.

The Ebro valley generally didn't urbanize until later. Most towns would be near the Western and Southern coasts. Harrison says the ancient Greek writers are probably the best guess sources right now, since so little archaeology has been done on this topic, especially outside Aragon and the Guadalquivir.

	18-10-2001 03:23									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan First, you're ignoring the trade ties between Greece and the West, which are vital. There actually were a number of military ties as well that easily could have been much more important if things went a little different. The Athenian attempt to conquer Syracuse, for instance. Or Pyrrhus's attempt to control Italy and Greece.

Yes, you're right regarding these ties, but that's nothing you could easily depict via events, or wonders (for the trade ties). That way you're sure this external influences on Western Med are going to happen indeed, if you trust the AI, nothing will happen... The only interesting thing would be to play as the Athenians, or even as the Epirus, but then, wouldn't a complete Mediterranean map be more useful?

I know I'm being a teaser, but this is quite similar to a idea I've been toying with myself...

I think I'll be able to provide you with more info on the berian cities tomorrow. For now, I'll just point out that according to my references, silver coins made in Rhode at 400 BC have been found.

	18-10-2001 04:09									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera In fact, this map adds probability to Hispalis (ancient Seville) being Tartessos City.

I don't see big ships sailing thru what were probably risky shallow waters (although I don't know much about ancient naval construction)

quote: Originally posted by Harlan By the way, Waku, another thing I learned today is that the Greek place called Hemeroskopion really wasn't worth much.

Mainake hasn't been found either, in any case the existence of small greek factories in the punic area of influence supports the idea of the greek interest to sail to the Pillars (Tartessos?)

	18-10-2001 13:12									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Waku I don't see big ships sailing thru what were probably risky shallow waters (although I don't know much about ancient naval construction)

Ancient ships had a very low draught (I don't know if this makes any sense in English: que tenían muy poco calado, vamos), even the biggest ones were able to sail thry shallow waters.

quote: Mainake hasn't been found either, in any case the existence of small greek factories in the punic area of influence supports the idea of the greek interest to sail to the Pillars (Tartessos?)

Mainaké has been found, by Schulten.

	18-10-2001 23:41									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera Mainaké has been found, by Schulten.

Did he really found it or...
did he think he found it?

	18-10-2001 23:56									#81
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(Not gonna follow the red cloth this time, though )

	18-10-2001 23:59									#82
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He did. It's one of the few things he acomplished that is universally acknowledged, I think. The unveiling of Numantia is another one.

	19-10-2001 00:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Prometheus, I'll take your map, and I still need help on knowing which cities are in or out - please more wisdom from our Spanish experts!

Map is on the way, Harlan! Celtic sites from VII to III century BC in Spain. Note that are almost placed into two main groups in northern Spain.

PS a lot of these were little villages, smal fortresses or trading posts - ask help to JB or someone else, they can help you for sure!!!

PPS Dark grey areas are more then 500 meters high.

	19-10-2001 01:05									#84
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Sorry about this, after a further reading I've learnt that the city found by Schulten was most likely founded by the Phoenicians instead the Greeks, and thus, it can't qualify as the Greek Mainaké.

I was wrong.

	19-10-2001 01:23									#85
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I wasn't sure either I just remembered myself wondering over a map where the infierno could this road be, till I realized that I didn't have any of the two starting points as a clue

	24-10-2001 12:33									#86
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So it seems that the Great Tartessos Debate, Part 2, is over. That's okay, but I'm bummed to see this thread die as well. Certain people (cough Fiera cough, cough Jay Bee cough cough ), promised to better determine which places were towns in 500 BC. Is the task simply too murky? There certainly is a dearth of info on some of this stuff.

	24-10-2001 13:03									#87
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Harlan, I gave you my lists already The cities in them were all present at 500 BC. Now, if you need more let me know. In Kindal's list there are quite a few towns of Roman origin.