13-10-2001 16:42									#31
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and is anyone reaaly surprised??? civ3 Version 2.4 (subtitled the search for more money) will include MP but will cost a big buckaroo !!!!

	13-10-2001 16:54									#32
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Surprised: Not really. Angry: Very much so.

	13-10-2001 16:56									#33
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Rasputin,
I think all other features are good enough to buy the game anyway, but MP wouldn't been wrong. We still don't know whether they will have us to buy a MP version, or feature it in a XP together with other features, or give it away for free (as they became tired of only playing MP with themselves)

	13-10-2001 19:00									#34
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quote: Yeees! Celebrate! I'm really happy about lack of multiplayer in the game, and I'm not joking about this.

Yes Sir Mr. Solver!

Now we know, why did you always left your nations in such a bad condition.

Didn'y you care for those poor guys, who eventually would take over the nations from you when you left our games?

One is still suffering, handling enourmous number of slavers and clerics.

And cities with no access to food

And missing trade?

And... and .

Well, everything has a reason I see !

Sorry Solver - but even so, your post did surprise me a little .

	13-10-2001 19:36									#35
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Well said.

Firaxis tacitly lied - a white lie, if you prefer - in not stating this earlier. Clearly MP was a selling point for some consumers, and it was used in the game's promotion. While certainly Firaxis or Infogrames have broken no contractual obligation to any of us, it demonstrates poor taste to disinform customers. DanS' description 'perfidious' is absolutley correct in that sense.

For all the mystique this site has attributed to Sid Meier, it is disappointing to see that he could not prevent this. While no bindng contracts have been breached, our trust has been violated.

quote: Originally posted by DanS Booooo!!!!!! Perfidious Firaxis.

	13-10-2001 20:25									#36
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And what with option: "hot seat" - this won't be there too. This option isn't wery hard to put it into game options...

	13-10-2001 20:52									#37
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I hope some day we'll all find out enough information to piece together what actually happened from the point Firaxis first mentioned CIV III w/ multiplayer to the point stated in their FAQ that it would ship without it.

I know I have considered several explanations, many of them based on reading opinions posted here at Apolyton. Were they were trying to get it in and failed to make the deadline? Was it for marketing? Did they want to toy with the emotions and attitudes of fansite members? Were they totally clueless and that sloppy with customer relation communications?

The constant in all the explanations I've given the most credence to is the fact it took so long for an official "No MP" statement to be made. Add the way information came out, like clues to be found in an E-mail to a teacher, and interviews in magazines, that there'd be no MP. Then recently Dan responds that he cannot give an official explanation nor and unofficial explanation on why CIV III will be shipping without MP.

Here's why I'm posting. Even before the MP issue, IMO Firaxis has been great in fan appreciation, but sub par in execution. So this morning a brand new angle popped into my head after my first espresso.

What if Infogrames has been the one demanding MP from the get go, and it has been Firaxis, or Sid, saying not ready, not ready, not ready, right through to the point it went Gold. Your publisher refuses to let you give up on MP till you prove in Beta its not ready. This would contractually keep you from saying "No MP" until you contractually proved to the "suits" it was not ready.

If Firaxis committed to MP as part of the Infogrames contract, those references to MP in the early interviews and pre-order features right after the publishing deal would be natural. If in this same contract they did not contractually commit to a guaranteed first release version (get the lawyers), and Firaxis does hold fan appreciation dear, and they won't release an MP that doesn't work any better than previous Civ MPs, then you would have what we've seen. Infogrames refusing to let go of the hope for MP by the time CIV III is gold, and refusing to allow any official statements on "no MP".

It would be Infogrames who'd be worried about CIV III losing money because it has no MP, not Firaxis. IMO the folks at Firaxis are more confident that CIV III will sell without MP on initial release, and the publisher would be sweating bullets.

The way communication on the status of MP was handled by Firaxis/Infogrames (by individual employees as well as corporate communications) does not look like some well executed or thought out strategy to achieve some type of goal. It looks to this poster like the result some internal problems, not a plan.


PS: Welcome to my first Apolyton post. YAY!

	13-10-2001 21:00									#38
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Welcome! Great post.

quote: It looks to this poster like the result some internal problems, not a plan.

I can agree with this 100%. I don't see cheater or liers. I see people who have yet to learn from the past and make stuff like this a priority for the company.

	13-10-2001 21:32									#39
	CIV3 MP Inflate your Upload Space

Hugely disappointed. There is not a snow balls chance in hell that the AI will be anywhere close to challenging enough without it being ridiculous (ie: learn tech twice as fast and produce units twice as fast, etc...). I'm sure the game will be fun and I still look forward to playing it, but I hope we don't have to wait 2 years to have a multi-player version.

	13-10-2001 21:57									#40
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Good for them. Make sure the game is good, then worry about multiplayer. I don't want to have to wait an additional few months (whatever) for something I'll never use.

	13-10-2001 23:23									#41
	No MP - Disappointed Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm not a frequent visitor to this board like some but Wow! I'm very disappointed that the multiplayer option will not be included with the first release. This is huge news.

Although I'm sure that Civ 3 will be an exciting upgrade to Civ 2, to not have this option will prompt me to cancel my advance order and wait for the gold edition. This is purely for monetary reasons ... the Civ 3 game here in Canada ordered in advance via bits and chips was over $100 with shipping and currency exchange plus I likely have to pay GST. For it not to include MP ... well it just isn't worth it IMHO.

Too bad I've been really looking forward to this. Also explains why I never got an answer from Fixaris about MP options ...

Thanks for saving me 110 bucks...

	14-10-2001 08:14									#42
	Single Player only - can be a good thing Full PM-box? Change here!

Personally, I'm also kind of excited there's no multiplayer. As some have argued it means they really worked hard on the single player to get it right, but that's not the main reason.

It brings me back to the days of when I first got Civ2. I wasn't bored with every game out there. New games (like Civ2) were new and exciting to me.

Going back to just single player may force some of us to get back to the reason we really loved the game.... For every game I've ever liked, it was for the single player first and the multiplayer second.

This also brings back memories about finding hidden multiplayer ability in Civ2 and trying it out at school. Na, I don't see this as bad, but a chance to really enjoy this game before going into the fast paced multiplayer.

	14-10-2001 08:57									#43
	Re: Single Player only - can be a good thing Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kevin Ar18 Going back to just single player may force some of us to get back to the reason we really loved the game.... For every game I've ever liked, it was for the single player first and the multiplayer second.

Can't argue with you Kevin -- you're absolutely right that a non MP player game will force you to explore the game in it's entirety. I'm sure Civ 3 will be a great game and I will probably relent and buy it come Xmas.

What annoys me is that I was under the impression that since Civ 2 was a MP game at the last release, so would Civ 3. Fixaris did nothing to correct that impression.

	14-10-2001 10:03									#44
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quote: Originally posted by WarningU2 Can't argue with you Kevin -- you're absolutely right that a non MP player game will force you to explore the game in it's entirety. I'm sure Civ 3 will be a great game and I will probably relent and buy it come Xmas. What annoys me is that I was under the impression that since Civ 2 was a MP game at the last release, so would Civ 3. Fixaris did nothing to correct that impression.

Well, I must admit I've never played Civ2 multiplayer apart from the hotseat hack.

Oh, and we're not gonna have to wait years for multiplayer for Civ III.
With Civ2 they didn't really have major plans for multiplayer it seems.
However, multiplayer in Civ III is one of their plans for the game.

BTW, look how pleasantly surprised we've been to even get Civ III this early. Some expected it to come out next year.

	14-10-2001 13:47									#45
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Kevin Ar18: Although you have a point, you're only partially right. It's true, first one plays the single player mode, and, when he has fully explored the game mechanics, one goes to multiplayer (at least that worked for me). But you see, in Civ3, you won't have the option of going to multiplayer.
From what I judge you haven't really had a real MP civ experience. Believe me, it's entirely a different world. A whole range of possibilities of action become viable. Secret plans, schemes, real diplomacy. It actually adds a "role playing" to a civ game (and this makes you more "attached" to a single game). And we'll be missing all this out because there will be no multiplayer in Civ3.
The freedom to chose what suits you the most is better than being forced to having one option.

	14-10-2001 16:11									#46
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quote: BTW, look how pleasantly surprised we've been to even get Civ III this early. Some expected it to come out next year.

not me

implement unique units, culture and resources over an old familiar civ2 frame. completely 2D, only new pictures... how hard is that?
it took them 2 years to do that, now that we know that there is no MP.
it is not fast, it is slow for this type of the game. I suppose most time went to playtesting

and I would wait longer to get complete game. MP _is_ part of the game, believe it or not. anyone who is happy for getting better SP because there is no MP are wrong. In reality, it can only be worse SP because of no MP, not better.

	14-10-2001 16:24									#47
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VetLegion:

quote: [...]completely 2D[...]

Ehhrm... Not really AFAIK. Civ3 will be 3D.

	14-10-2001 16:25									#48
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quote: Good for them. Make sure the game is good, then worry about multiplayer.

this is impossible. you have to design for MP to make it good.
I have already mentioned eiffel tower wonder. In SP it impoves oppinion of others toward you, in MP it makes everyone think you must be crazy

whole bunch of diplomatic options has to be designed with MP in mind.
Units have to be designed with human in mind... how will human use it, are there loopholes, is this unit too cost-effective if human uses it, how about misuse? will some units be useless altogether in MP?

for example diplomats in civ2, humans could use them to avoid zones of control, which AI could not. This made them a problem, and some scenarios explicitly said that using diplos for ZoC is wrong. I conquered russia in a WWII scenario, in what, 3 turns, with diplomats

these are all design flaws that show their face only when game is stressed in MP enviroment. playtesting against AI can never polish the game as playing MP can. And it is not for benefit of MPlayers only, it is for the benefit of the whole game.

there are numerous other examples. Units, structures, diplomacy, everything has to be designed keeping in mind what will humans do with them in MP game against other humans.

fine civ MP game makes possible a fine civ SP game. not the other way around.

	14-10-2001 16:30									#49
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quote: Ehhrm... Not really AFAIK. Civ3 will be 3D.

no, 2D. take a look at the screenshots.

if you are thinking that they use D3D it is possible, but the game is still 2D. microsoft made DX8 interface so that you use D3D programming interface even for 2D graphics.

however:

1) I doubt they use DX8
2) if they use DX8 and D3D, game is still 2D

which is a good thing, I think.

	14-10-2001 16:43									#50
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VetLegion: Well, I've looked at the screens, and I'm still convinced it's 3D . First of all, take a look at the borders - they are located on the "surface" of the earth, eg. they incline and decline with the slope. Secondly, d/l the screen saver and see how the units move.

	14-10-2001 21:14									#51
	Re: Re: Single Player only - can be a good thing Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by WarningU2 you're absolutely right that a non MP player game will force you to explore the game in it's entirety.

Um. Explore what? The fact that the enemy will never launch a good sea invasion.

The fact you'll never see a good air campaign prior to a good sea invasion.

Or, on the other hand, the fact it'll never defend against a good sea invasion?

I've always been bummed that the best way to have a challenging game against the AIs is to play on one huge land mass.

Anyhow, unless this AI is leagues ahead of the other civ style games, it won't be worth the money for me to figure out the shortcomings of yet another AI.

Ah well..

	14-10-2001 21:27									#52
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quote: Originally posted by LoD From what I judge you haven't really had a real MP civ experience. Believe me, it's entirely a different world. A whole range of possibilities of action become viable. Secret plans, schemes, real diplomacy. It actually adds a "role playing" to a civ game (and this makes you more "attached" to a single game). And we'll be missing all this out because there will be no multiplayer in Civ3.

I know what you mean from other games I play multiplayer in. But, you WILL be getting multiplayer later on - that was my point. At least you can look forward to that.

	14-10-2001 21:30									#53
	Re: It's officially official: No MP Support Apolyton

quote: some cool multiplayer concepts that will take a fresh approach to the challenge of making multiplayer for a turn-based game fun

That part of the message irritates me. "Cool MP concept"?
What could that be? New spiffy way to say usual multiplayer?
Are they going to use Quake III Arena's MP in Civ III?!?

If I read correct between the lines, Firaxis will
probably try to construct a new way to play
Civ III with MP. Realtime Civ III? That can't be true,
but we newer know. Looks like someone should
hack into their network.

	15-10-2001 03:19									#54
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quote: VetLegion: Well, I've looked at the screens, and I'm still convinced it's 3D . First of all, take a look at the borders - they are located on the "surface" of the earth, eg. they incline and decline with the slope. Secondly, d/l the screen saver and see how the units move.

I dont have time to DL the screensaver, but I am positive the game is 2D.
as I said, it perhaps uses some 3d techniques and 3d api, but for playing purposes it is 2d. all 3d it uses is either trivial work or an api function, so this pseudo3d look and feel of civ3 is not an excuse for 2 years of coding.

that time went somwhere else

	15-10-2001 18:34									#55
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VetLegion: They didn't have to code anything to have the game 3D. They had the SMAC engine ready to use .

	15-10-2001 18:45									#56
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Kevin Ar18:

quote: I know what you mean from other games I play multiplayer in. But, you WILL be getting multiplayer later on - that was my point. At least you can look forward to that.

Yes, but I want it for free, just like in any normal modern computer game. And I go as far as to say that if Firaxis had planned to release MP in a free patch, it would already announce that - it would "marketing sensible", if you know what I mean.

LoD

	15-10-2001 23:10									#57
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LoD - spot on

I'm not denying that there will be multiplayer eventually. But for Firaxis not to ship the game with MP, *even* as an afterthought, is disgraceful.

The AI is going to suck. Let that be an end to that conversation - the only way they're going to make the AI *any* sort of match for a human player is with ridiculous production and technological bonuses (play SMAC on transcend and you'll know what I mean).

Instead, they're going to make some cash out of it by releasing it in six months time. Well....that just says it all. Not terribly surprising after SMAC experiences, but this is going that one step further.

Will I buy Civ3 SP? Very probably. But Firaxis have lost a lot of my respect - and I would imagine a lot of other people's besides. Do they care? No.

	16-10-2001 03:17									#58
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quote: VetLegion: They didn't have to code anything to have the game 3D. They had the SMAC engine ready to use.

SMAC is only pseudo 3D, in fact it is as 2D as civ2

quote: The AI is going to suck. Let that be an end to that conversation

I wont be that harsh
AI will hardly be match for human. But still AI is a construction, a job of an engeneer who does it, and it is possible for AI to be good, while not a match for human. I was one of the people who wanted firaxis to hire guy specially for AI... so I do appreciate work put in it even if it is not the next champion.

	16-10-2001 03:36									#59
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My bet is that a patch will come out within 2 weeks of the game with multiplayer support.

Civ II didn't originally have multiplayer support either.

	16-10-2001 03:40									#60
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That I would *love* to see.

But it's not gonna happen.