15-10-2001 07:53									#31
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Sid, by his own admission, says Covert Action had major design flaws. Also, how many of you 'played' CPU Bach?

The man is human, Imran. You talk about toning down the pessimist talk. How about the Sid worhsip?

	15-10-2001 09:39									#32
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And what about Magic: The Gathering? Yes Sid made the computer game for the card game. And yes the game wasn't very good. So he has made bad games.

	15-10-2001 09:41									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Activision v. Firaxis.... big different.

Ahh but Firaxis isn't in control of publishing the game or when the game gets releases. Infogrames is in charge of that and that does not give me that much faith.

	15-10-2001 09:47									#34
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quote: Infogrames is in charge of that and that does not give me that much faith.

That does, for some reason, seem to be an important element in all this.

	15-10-2001 09:49									#35
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quote: Yes, however has had more than an average number of great games unlike others. Its a little more than luck.

The civ games are great, but other than that his stuff ranks between above average to slightly below IMHO.

quote: You can say what you want but CTP is no Civ. Just because an ape has 98% f the DNA of a human doesnt make it a man. Its all in the way its put together.

CTP2 has serious coding flaws which cripples it, but aside from interface, CTP1 was fine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see what Civ2 had that CTP1 didn't. People keep mentioning some ethereal quality civ2 had, but ethereal qualities and tooth faeries are of the same category - you can talk about them but they don't really exist. There was no certain undefinable something that made Civ2 better than CTP1 - I can tell you exactly some of the things that made civ2 better. But one of those things was NOT the name Sid Meier on the box. Remember, good game and not-Sid are perfectly compatable states.

quote: Civ3 is made by the guy who was behind the other two that did so well. Thats what counts.

I though Brian Reynolds quit Firaxis? Oh, you mean Sid Meier. Actually that's not what counts. It's the game itself that counts. Kind of like how Godfather 1 and 2 were really good and Godfather 3 was mediocre. Civ2 can be really great while Civ3 isn't. Sorry to break this to you.

quote: The man is human, Imran. You talk about toning down the pessimist talk. How about the Sid worhsip?

My point exactly. Let's attempt some hype reduction.

	15-10-2001 10:31									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant The civ games are great, but other than that his stuff ranks between above average to slightly below IMHO.

Thats your opinion. Personally Pirates, railroad tycoon, and colonization rank up there with the greats in mine (and in quite a few all time greats lists)

quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant CTP2 has serious coding flaws which cripples it, but aside from interface, CTP1 was fine. In fact, I'm hard pressed to see what Civ2 had that CTP1 didn't. People keep mentioning some ethereal quality civ2 had, but ethereal qualities and tooth faeries are of the same category - you can talk about them but they don't really exist. There was no certain undefinable something that made Civ2 better than CTP1 - I can tell you exactly some of the things that made civ2 better. But one of those things was NOT the name Sid Meier on the box. Remember, good game and not-Sid are perfectly compatable states.

Yes however judging by the sales it seems the public thought that there was something different between them. Once again its your opinion but it sure looks like theres something there.

quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant I though Brian Reynolds quit Firaxis? Oh, you mean Sid Meier. Actually that's not what counts. It's the game itself that counts. Kind of like how Godfather 1 and 2 were really good and Godfather 3 was mediocre. Civ2 can be really great while Civ3 isn't. Sorry to break this to you.

Excuse me but I never said Civ3 would be great. Dont know where you got that from. Maybe next time you should quote the whole thing so you'll remember what I posted and why. Next thing you'll be saying is that I claimed to said Sid has never done wrong.

Sorry to break it to you but it does count. Your own argument about there being no difference between Civ2 and CTP bares it out because the sales clearly show that there is something there. Either your wrong and there is a big enough difference for John Q Public to want to buy Civ alot more than CTP or the Civ Name (and Sids) makes them want to buy Civ more than CTP. Either way proves false your argument about CTP being somehow relevant to the discussion. As I said, Sid has had more than his share of great games. He must have some idea of what hes doing.

PS: Another thing of note is Godfather3 was a boxoffice success. Why? Because of the name, the stars, the director.

	15-10-2001 10:36									#37
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Sales don't always correlate to a good game. In fact, it's often quite the contrary where hype and name worship are involved. I am not denying that Sid is one of the best...ever. But he has made mistakes in the past and, seemingly, has taken a reduced interest in Civ (becoming more of a playtester) as he pursues new material. Combine this with a publisher that clearly targetted a Christmas window, and you've got just what we have been saying:

Some very cautious Civvers who know from experience and current signs that a great Civ 3 is by NO means guaranteed. So we have given ideas when possible, complained when possible, and now (some of us, anyway) are holding back our dollars and 'faith' until the MP issue becomes perfectly clear and the first round of bugs are detected.

	15-10-2001 10:58									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Has the pessimism on this board gotten out of hand? ABSOLUTELY.

I agree with you, Jaybe. Looks like many apolytoners
have gone crazy when they have been waiting for Civ III
to be released.

There hasn't been many positive debates about the game
lately. Yin started a crusade for boycotting Civ III and
others are fed up. Crazy!

Please, stop spreading this negative attitude!

	15-10-2001 10:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Sales don't always correlate to a good game. In fact, it's often quite the contrary where hype and name worship are involved.

Once again let me point out what my post was. What I did say is that it does show that the public thought there was a difference between CTP and Civ and invalidated using CTP as a messuring stick because one way or the other its apples to oranges.

As for Sid I will stand by what I said. He has made mistakes but he has far more than the average the number of hits. Name brands sell, because of trust, and that trust is earned (or bought) ask any economics teacher. Personally I doubt they'll screw the pooch on Civ3, still doesnt mean I pre-ordered it. But it'll be a top seller short of something showstopping. Name brands sell

	15-10-2001 11:07									#40
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quote: Yin started a crusade for boycotting Civ III and others are fed up. Crazy!

Hmmm. I posted ONE thread taking that angle. And it seems that at least a handful of people will wait to buy the game until MP is included. This makes sense and is a rational way to handle with a company not being clear about its plans. Ultimately this coudl mean some lost sales for no good reason. I find that bad for both sides, actually.

quote: Name brands sell, because of trust, and that trust is earned (or bought) ask any economics teacher.

True...and name brands sometimes go bankrupt because the people calling the shots get overconfident and forget that a few big mistakes can ruin any God almost overnight. Ask any economics teacher.

Do I think Firaxis has done anything horrible enough to see recalls, etc.? No. Will it sell a ton of games? Sure. But will it build on our trust, keep our trust at status quo or drop it a bit? Well, the pre-release PR effort certainly didn't help. Now we have to wait to see the final product.

BTW, I don't think SMAC did much for their reputation (at least not according to a fairly broad survey of gamers on a few sites around here...though I know it has it's disciples). And while Gettyburg was a great game IMO, it didn't get much exposure.

So if you ask me, Firaxis has still to prove itself.

	15-10-2001 11:08									#41
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quote: The man is human, Imran.

Every game I have played that he has made (that includes Covert Action) has been good, IMO.

And seeing as how he was initiated into the Hall of Fame for the Interactive Arts, and is renown as the best Game Designer on the planet, I think that saying "Have faith in Sid" is not out of line at all. He has a proven track record, and every game he's made since Firaxis was formed have been utter masterpieces.

So, yes, IMO, Sid Worship is much more excusable than pessimism.

	15-10-2001 11:11									#42
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quote: Sid has NEVER presided over a bad game...

Well, then, you forgot to put on here "In my opinion" because certainly others here and even Sid himself see the occasional miss.

	15-10-2001 11:17									#43
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Have you ever put "In my opinion" in your threads in which you've said that it is 'obvious' that something is wrong?

Uh huh... thought so.

And it seems to most people (in their opinions... I trust you'll include that disclaimer in your posts now?) that Sid is deserving of the benefit of the doubt.

And btw, where is the 'constructive' criticism? No one answered me on the last thread. All I see is whining children led by one spoiled brat.

	15-10-2001 11:18									#44
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Ultimately this coudl mean some lost sales for no good reason. I find that bad for both sides, actually.

Makes sense to me, but you're going OT, sorry.
Buying Civ III might encourage those lazyberks
at Firaxis to move their lardazzes.
Perhaps one day we might see MP in Civ III.
Or at least our grandchildren will do that.

	15-10-2001 11:21									#45
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quote: All I see is whining children led by one spoiled brat.

I see. Still can't have a civil discussion, eh? I'll let the rest of your posts speak for themselves...Bad form Imran. Awfully bad. And I say that in honesty here.

	15-10-2001 11:22									#46
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 True...and name brands sometimes go bankrupt because the people calling the shots get overconfident and forget that a few big mistakes can ruin any God almost overnight. Ask any economics teacher.

Thing is we havnt seen anything showing overconfidence. The information for the most part that they have put out has been pretty much the MO of software companies that have been around a few years. They're still stubbing thier toes here and there with information. They'll learn to do it better in time or they might stop giving information (other than to gaming mags and reviewers). If they stop they wouldnt be the first.


As for it building on our trust? We'll know in a few weeks. Got all the time in the world to hammer them after the cards are all on the table.

Firaxis might still have to prove itself, but Sid already has and you cant seprate the two.

	15-10-2001 11:24									#47
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*yawn*

Hey, Pied Piper, why don't you take you lemmings and lead them off a nearby cliff?

I'm not some newbie, I know your 'tricks'. And frankly I don't care about your 'claimed affront by a personal attack'. I've been around you too long to really care about what you say to me. And this time you are serious! HA! You'll say anything to try to 'prove' your point.

I did notice that you didn't respond to the fact that most people (in there opinions) think Sid and Firaxis should get benefit of the doubt.

Btw, was that last post by you 'in your own opinion'? I couldn't tell?

	15-10-2001 11:28									#48
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My 'tricks'? Wow something wrong there, Imran. We were having a nice discussion (I thought) and you started getting personal. ANYBODY here would back me up on that.

Next: There are times to say "In my opinion" and times not. When you are saying a man NEVER made a bad game, that's AWFULLY opinionated...and you do no service to yourself to maintain that line when other posters and even the creator of the game himself thinks otherwise.

And if you want answers to some of your queries, try not spoiling the conversation with personal attacks. Possible?

	15-10-2001 11:35									#49
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It is too late for that, Yin. WAAAY too late.

You've already said that you aren't buying Civ3, and MIGHT get it at a later point. So why are you still here? The only logical conclusion is that you are trying to stir up trouble. You don't like how Firaxis has handled you (and yes it is about you), so you want to spawn merry Hell.

In that way, I find your actions despicable. Nothing constructive, just destructive.

So, yes, I do see you as a spoiled brat, leading whining children. Sorry if you don't like my analogy.

So then... Why ARE you here? And don't give that BS about you giving a lot of time. Jason Beaudoin gave a shitload of time to SMAC, and then he was disappointed by the demo, he didn't spawn merry Hell. No, he just simply dissapeared. Maybe take a lesson?

	15-10-2001 11:41									#50
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Who are you: My Mother! Oh, Lord, Imran...and people think I take myself too seriously. Have a beer, Mate. Kiss your girlfried. Look out the window.

quote: The only logical conclusion is that you are trying to stir up trouble.

Yes, according to 'Imra-logic' you have nailed it. Good Lord.

Some other options:

** My complaint to begin with was well-founded and clearly stated. You simply didn't like it so resort to name calling.

** I didn't invest lots of personal time along with many others simply to walk away without playing the game first.

** So I'll play the game when *I* feel it's complete. Which, for *me*, means at least when MP is included.

** Until then, I'll be here posting my opinions and no doubt be attacked by you in your stalker-like fashion.

Those are just a few, but they find no place in 'Imra-logic'

	15-10-2001 11:47									#51
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quote: Your own argument about there being no difference between Civ2 and CTP bares it out because the sales clearly show that there is something there. Either your wrong and there is a big enough difference for John Q Public to want to buy Civ alot more than CTP or the Civ Name (and Sids) makes them want to buy Civ more than CTP

Civ2 was the better game, I just don't think it had to do with some qualia-like nonsense about a "certain feel".

quote: Firaxis might still have to prove itself, but Sid already has and you cant seprate the two.

Sid has proven himself. That's why I'll buy civ3 when it comes out (and won't buy an Activision product the day it comes out). BUT you are only as good as your last game. If civ3 is a dog, I'll wait next time Sid has his name attached (or if the word 'golf' is in the title). Also, Pirates sucked. Gettysburg was mediocre, and Sim Golf is going to be a dog (Anything about golf sucks, IMHO).

quote: PS: Another thing of note is Godfather3 was a boxoffice success. Why? Because of the name, the stars, the director.

Yes, it was at the time owing to being part of the Godfather series. But if I was buying the Godfather movies on DVD separately, part 3 would definitely be on the "maybe pick it up later at some point no hurry whatsoever" list.

	15-10-2001 11:49									#52
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And if they charge for MP, will you still have to *try* the game because you 'worked so hard on it' (boohoo)?

As you said in a previous thread Firaxis not even saying that MP would be free makes you sick. How would you feel if they charged for it?

But you'd still buy it?! PLEASE! Give us all a break!

YOU make me sick! Destructive criticism is your calling card. I remember you on the OWO boards remember, basically calling for Firaxis' heads, and then trying to back away from purposely inflammatory statements.

You made me sick back then, and you make me sick now. A Pied Piper set on destructive criticism, while hiding under the veneer of being constructive. The myth has cracks already, now to attempt to bring it down.

	15-10-2001 11:53									#53
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If you really believe what you are typing, you honestly have some personal problems that I won't interfere with. If you are just trolling, then you are a Master.

Well, for somebody who calls for constructive comments all the time, I find your blatant name-calling and digging up things all the way back to 3 years ago to be pathetically ironic.

How sad you think of the world in those terms.

Well, folks, please ignore this little episode. I do wonder, however, if Imran plans to high-jack every thread I post in because he still feels upset about things 3 years ago?

For the benefit of other posters to this thread, I will now ignore anything else Imran has to say here unless it is constructive.

	15-10-2001 11:53									#54
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quote: BUT you are only as good as your last game. If civ3 is a dog, I'll wait next time Sid has his name attached (or if the word 'golf' is in the title). Also, Pirates sucked. Gettysburg was mediocre, and Sim Golf is going to be a dog (Anything about golf sucks, IMHO).

SMAC was Firaxis' latest game, and it was a great game (IMO, and in the opinion of many others), widely ranked highly (even in second opinions a year afterwards).

Pirates? Ask some people about that . There is a large group of people that'd give their right eye for Pirates 2, and would prefer that to Civ3.

Gettysburg was an AMAZING game (as was Antietam). Ranked high by just abou everyone. One of the best wargames of all time.

And I am of the opinion that SidGolf will be a decent game (not as addictive as Civ, but good nonetheless).

	15-10-2001 11:56									#55
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Whoa Yin is now ignoring... trying to seem like he's securing the high ground (where have I seen that before ) - also notice the thinly disguised personal attacks while saying I was pathetic for them (I don't mind personal attacks while warrented but doing them while saying they are wrong... hypocrite anyone?).

Constructive? Since the 'List', Yin has been anything but. Certainly not anytime soon.

As constructive as Attila the Hun was, right? Or maybe Genghis Khan?

	15-10-2001 12:00									#56
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quote: SMAC was Firaxis' latest game, and it was a great game (IMO, and in the opinion of many others), widely ranked highly (even in second opinions a year afterwards).

I still play, but had to mod it in order to stop AI ICS with worthless sea cities.

quote: Pirates? Ask some people about that . There is a large group of people that'd give their right eye for Pirates 2, and would prefer that to Civ3.

And those people are wrong.

quote: Gettysburg was an AMAZING game (as was Antietam). Ranked high by just abou everyone. One of the best wargames of all time.

I disagree.

quote: And I am of the opinion that SidGolf will be a decent game (not as addictive as Civ, but good nonetheless).

Might just be my personal feelings about golf here. BUt George Carlin said it much better . . .

	15-10-2001 12:00									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant Civ2 was the better game, I just don't think it had to do with some qualia-like nonsense about a "certain feel".

Then you agree using it in an argument having to do with anything about Civ3 is baseless since Civ2 was far better.

quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant Also, Pirates sucked.

Bahhh the hell you say. You may think that but take a look at the top 100 game lists. You'll almost always find it. You'll also find its one of the most sought after games out there at the freeware sites, not to mention Pirates for windows CD's being sold on Ebay.

	15-10-2001 12:03									#58
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Imran: I'm glad that you have faith in Sid. He sure has done some great pionering work on different games.

It's just the fact that Sid haven't done sequels and I have a gutfeeling he isn't now either. Sid is golfing if you haven't notised.

So yes I'm somewhat pessimistic about Civ3 - Hell I've been waiting for 2½+ years and when Civ3 finally goes gold I'm nore entusiastic about the upcoming Europa Universalis 2 than of Civ3.

And I do agree that 90% could have been avoidable with good PR.
(I don't play MP - but releasing a game today whithout MP?? SMAC had MP, so they have expirience in the area.)

IMHO Civ3 shouldn't be released now - FIRAXIS should really do their beta good and release in the spring a good finished Civ3, with MP.

	15-10-2001 12:04									#59
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MPleasant,

You may disagree, but the majority of people do not! People like Pirates and Gettysburg and it is always ranked highly! In your opinion, perhaps Sid needs to prove himself. HOWEVER, based on majority opinion, Sid doesn't need to prove anything.

	15-10-2001 12:06									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant And those people are wrong.

Because you dont like the game?