13-10-2001 07:20									#1
	Efficiency-higer than +4 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

just a question about when you go higher than +4 efficiency in SE. i know that with planet, a +7 planet rating is possible as the cult with the nexus green and cyber, and that it would give you +70% bonus attacking PSI (add dream twister for extra fun ). but does this work with effic and research? do you get a bonus, or is it wasted? UoP or borgs running knowledge and cyber would get +6 research. i think it technically only goes up to +5. do you get more efficiency with +9 than +4 even though the datalinks says it stops at +4?

	13-10-2001 08:01									#2
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EDIT: Fixed the police thing and added Probe

I'm pretty sure you get more efficiency even past +4...

As Morgan, with 100+ bases sprawling all over (large conquest), I was running Democracy/Green/Wealth/Cybernetic. That's +6 efficiency. If I take off Green, leaving the "maximum" of 4 (as listed in the Datalinks), I lose about 5000 credits per turn. So basically, those points after 4 in efficiency are still useful

I don't think research goes past 5 (+50% - University can get +6), I don't think Industry goes past 5 (-50% cost - tried it with custom faction, I think, but in normal SMAC, 5 is the highest anyone (Yang) can get), Planet keeps going with the psi bonus, Economy stops at 5 (with something obscene like +1 energy each square, +4 base energy, +3 commerce - Morgan can get 6), Police stops at only 3 I think (3 police, double effect - can get 6 as Spartans with AV, Police State and Thought Control), Growth stops at +6 (population boom - what else could you want?), Support stops at...4 or 5 (support 4 or up to base size), Morale stops at...I don't know, I've never played Spartans . I assume the barrier is at Elite troops, however many points that takes, Probe stops at +3 (+a lot to base probe team morale, can't be subverted)

Note, however, that the AI can get more than -50% mineral costs on high difficulties. On Transcend, they get a bonus of 30-40% (can't remember) less minerals DIRECTLY, not indirectly through social engineering. So, I guess an AI Hive could have +5 Industry on social engineering and thus have 1-2 minerals per row!!

Sorry that was so long...and most wasn't even on your original question ! But I did answer that, right ?

Z

Last edited by Zakharov VII on 13-10-2001 at 12:01

	13-10-2001 10:13									#3
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Just wanna nitpick a little.

Police can actually go 6 with Santiago (they gets +1 from start)

	13-10-2001 10:30									#4
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Ah, thanks !! I know the Spartans have their morale bonus and industry penalty, but, as I said, I've never played them, so I didn't realize they had a "minor bonus" of police

I also forgot probe - I have no idea what's the highest, I played Miriam once, put on Fundy and just assumed the no subversion without checking what + I had and what other bonuses I get

Z

Me chieftain now! Me no settler!

	13-10-2001 11:07									#5
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Beyond 3 in probe (which gives you unsubvertible bases and troops) has no further effect.

hey congrats, Zak!

btw, how many Zak's are there? I thought number VII (you) was old in the game (=here at apolyton) or is it some other Zak?

	13-10-2001 11:15									#6
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quote: btw, how many Zak's are there? I thought number VII (you) was old in the game (=here at apolyton) or is it some other Zak?

I don't quite understand what you're asking...when I signed up here, I think plain old Zakharov was taken, so I picked a (fairly) random number...that's how the 7 came to be

Z

	13-10-2001 11:27									#7
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I guess what wanted to know was if you are new or some older member who "rejoined"? I'm suprised that you're joining the NCC since usually those things are way too advanced for "newbie" if you understand what I mean. I've been here since feb 2001 and I still consider myself "newbie" sometimes in comparison with Vel, Gogglie, Tau and a bounch of other "oldies"......

well anyway. Zak VII is a good nic.

Last edited by knowhow2 on 13-10-2001 at 15:40

	13-10-2001 11:58									#8
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I'm new, never been here before last month .

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 I'm suprised that you're joining the NCC since usually those things are way too advanced for "newbie" if you understand what I mean

I've been addicted to SMAC ever since I first started playing, so I actually have a bunch of game-hours of practice even if I haven't had the game for that long (I'm still a newbie compared to Vel and the like, obviously ). By now I know the tech tree pretty well, can run Free Market without riots, and can carry out a pop-boom, I'm pretty tired of the normal SP game on Transcend. No crawlers, super-powered AI factions (+2 industry and growth), double blind/tech stag, etc make the game a lot more interesting

By the way, TKG, sorry for being so off-topic - but we HAVE answered your question and many similar ones quite completely

Z

	13-10-2001 18:00									#9
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A quick experiment with a saved game of mine show that inefficiency energy losses are reduced fo +7 efficiency to +9 efficiency.

	14-10-2001 01:20									#10
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thanks all. i was just wondering because a custom faction im gonna play soon has +3 research, which with knowledge and cyber is +7, a waste.

	14-10-2001 07:15									#11
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Going beyond three on probe actually has an effect. This was documented as a bug a while ago.

probe settings beyond 3 sets the value back to 0.
Very annoying - especially if you are angels +2 and discover the tech that gives automatic "black ops centres" as that will put the city at +4 (which makes it 0).

It is especially annoying as you have one global value (counting for units and actions against enemy) and one per city (2 above global) with black ops.

Anyway besides this on some testing I have done I have seen no benefits from efficiencies above 4

	14-10-2001 11:57									#12
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Buster my nemesis One of this days I shall have my revenge.

Anyway, didn't't they fix that probe bug with patch v 4.0?

	14-10-2001 18:17									#13
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Knowhow2 - I did not realize our short encounter had such an impact.

No its not fixed.
Still present in smac v4 and smacx v.2

I discovered in one game when one of my cities were mindcontrolled even even if running on probe value of +6

	15-10-2001 06:41									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Zakharov VII I'm pretty sure you get more efficiency even past +4... As Morgan, with 100+ bases sprawling all over (large conquest), I was running Democracy/Green/Wealth/Cybernetic. That's +6 efficiency. If I take off Green, leaving the "maximum" of 4 (as listed in the Datalinks), I lose about 5000 credits per turn. So basically, those points after 4 in efficiency are still useful

A quick question: Are you sure that it wasn't the change in the amount of bueracracy drones that effected your income especially considering how many bases you had?

quote: A quick experiment with a saved game of mine show that inefficiency energy losses are reduced fo +7 efficiency to +9 efficiency.

See question above.

	15-10-2001 07:24									#15
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Just checked in my Morgan game - right now at Democracy/Green/Knowledge/Cybernetic. At Morgan Gravitonics, 36 out of the 164 energy is lost to inefficiency. Change to Power (down to +6 efficiency), and 39 out of the same 164 energy is lost to inefficiency.

So yes, efficiency past +4 still helps!

Z

	15-10-2001 19:54									#16
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Don't forget Children's Creches, which are another +2 (?) efficiency for that base. I haven't figured out if that affects the bureaucracy drones -- anyone know?

So with Gaia/Democracy/Green/Knowledge/Cybernetic/Creche , that's +11 efficiency... quite high, given that "Paradigm" is at +4...

At least the extra Efficiency does indeed help, as does a Planet rating beyond +3. No other area gives more benefits beyond the highest level listed, and every one of them can be exceeded (some like Research and Morale by only one faction, and Probe and Industry only in SMAX.) Firaxis was uncharacteristically shortsighted in designing those tables.

	16-10-2001 03:40									#17
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Efficiency beyond +4 has a definate effect in two areas: raising the limit on bases beyond which you experience extra drones, and energy loss due to ineffieciency. If you look up the formulas for both of those, you'll see they both allow for values beyond +4.

+4 is the limit for loss due to disparities between the lab/econ allocation. At +4 and above, there is no loss even if you run 0% econ and 100% labs (or vice versa).

Efficiency is one of the few that allows this open ended scale.

Incidentally, while I accept the probe wrap-in-value bug (having not tested it personally) I find it very suprising that it happens above +3. Given that Believers/Fundy/Thought Control allow a +4 PROBE (IIRC), you could exceed the limit even in the original game. Thus I find it somewhat amazing that Firaxis set the top as +3. Not all that amazing considering we're talking about Firaxis, or course.