15-10-2001 02:54									#1
	Expansion Pack Civs Explained: Phoenicians and Dutch Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The sequel to Locutus' classic thread. This is a thread designed for the establishment of info for the Phoenican and Dutch civs. Any and all feel free to contribute, and I will update the basic info post as needed. Here we go.

Name: Phoenicians
Variants: Phoenicia, the Phoenicians, Phoenician (keep in mind, the Carthaginians are also included herein)
Leader: King Hiram of Tyre (stauch ally to Israel's David) or Jezebel for the femi-nazis (who I might add may consider her their heroine)

Capital City: Tyre (later, more famous) or Byblos (earlier, founding city-state)
Military Leaders: Hannibal, Hamilcar Barca, Hasdrubal, Hanno, ...
Cities: Sidon, Byblos, Carthage, Cartagena, Oea, Gadir, Tarshish...
Unique Unit: Pentekonter or Quinquireme (as far as I know, these are about the same thing, one in Latin the other, Greek. Pick which one you like) Trireme with increased speed and defense
Attributes: Commercial (EXTREMELY SO), and Expansionist
Golden Age Period: Ancient

History: (Coming soon... contributions welcome)
Strategy: The Phoenicians are an early maritime and trade civilization, and are the first to have a strong navy. However, they are weak on land and should ally early on with the Egyptians (real life) or the Babylonians to stay afloat (pardon the pun). They will also have possible conflicts with the nearby Israelites - coming soon - unless they open some trade routes. They have almost a monopoly on murex purple dye and red cedar wood, two new luxury commodities, which gives them trade advantages with their neighbors and elsewhere. If they can weather the early age storm, they should outlive they early empires, and move into the "Carthaginian" phase of existence, spreading colonies over the empty parts of the Mediterranean, and trade with the up and coming Indians in the east, for War Elephants! If they can pull a Hannibal, get lucky, and take out Rome, they're in good shape. However, once the industrial age is reached, they will weaken, and be hard pressed to avoid being eliminated by the new naval powers, the Dutch (Fluyt), Spanish (Armada), and British (Man-of-War). Perhaps another alliance is in store for Phoenicia. Otherwise they're just another tortured Lebanon.



Name: Dutch
Variants: the Netherlands, the Dutch, Dutch
Leader: Prince William of Orange (one of many, suggestions for the specific one are welcome)

Capital city: Amsterdam
Military Leaders: Piet Heyn, Maarten Tromp, Michiel de Ruyter, Maurice, William III
Cities: The Hague - political capital of the Netherlands (government seats here)
Rotterdam - world's largest port
Utrecht - very important city, capital of Utrecht
Middelburg - capital of Zeeland
Delft - capital of provisional government during Eighty Years War (Holland)
Vlissingen - very important port city in Zeeland
Deventer - important Hanseatic city
's Hertogenbosch - capital of Dutch Brabant
Maastricht - capital of Dutch Limburg, originally Roman city, Hanseatic
Nijmegen - originally Roman city, Hanseatic
Groningen - capital of Groningen, Hanseatic city
Amersfoort - important trade city
Kampen - important Hanseatic city
Zwolle - capital of Overijssel, important Hanseatic city
Leeuwarden - capital of Friesland
Haarlem - capital of (Noord) Holland
Leiden - important Renaissance age industrial, scientific and cultural city in Holland
Dordrecht - important port in Holland, Hanseatic
Gouda - important trade city in Holland
Roermond - cultural and religious city in Dutch Limburg
Alkmaar - important trade city in Holland
Breda - important trade city in Dutch Brabant
Arnhem - capital of Gelderland, important Modern Age city
Harderwijk - important Hanseatic city
Zutphen - Important Hanseatic city
Dokkum - important Medieval/Golden Age trade city in Friesland
Enkhuizen - important Golden Age port city in Holland
Sneek - important port and trade city in Friesland
Venlo - important trade city in Dutch Limburg
Zierikzee - important port city in Zeeland
Bergen op Zoom - important Medieval and Golden Age city
Gorkum/Gorinchem - important Golden Age trade city
Schoonhoven - important Medieval/Golden Age city (salient detail: most important means of existance was cultivation of hemp)
Veere/Kampveere - important Zeelandse post-Medieval port and trade city
Tilburg - important Medieval/Golden Age industrial city
Enschede - important Industrial Age industrial city
Assen - important trade city, capital of Drente
Eindhoven - important Modern Age city
Den Helder - important port in Holland
Delfzijl - important port in Groningen
IJmuiden - important port in Holland
Hoogeveen - center of Dutch peat industry
Nieuw Amsterdam - aka New York City & city near Parimaribo (Surinam)
Fort Oranje - name of colonies in New York State, Brazil, Ghana, Indonesia, Dutch Antilles, etc
Fort Nassau - name of colonies in New Jersey State, Brazil, Ghana, Senegal, Indonesia, etc
Kaapstad - aka Cape Town, important Dutch colony
Batavia - Jakarta, destination of most Dutch ships sailing to the Indies
Almere - recently founded, large supermodern city in Flevoland
Lelystad - recently founded capital of Flevoland
Unique Unit: Fluyt/Privateer/Merchatman, a Caravel with increased movement points and lower cost
Attributes: Commercial and Industrious
Golden Age Period: Renaissance

History: ...
Strategy: ...


To all - this thread is a work in progress, and as I am currently out of time, I would appreciate any additions you may have. Locutus, since you expressed an already prepared amount of information, feel free to contribute.

Last edited by Alexander01 on 17-10-2001 at 20:21

	15-10-2001 03:12									#2
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I guess both the Phoenicians and the Dutch could be labelled 'Expansionistic". The Phoe's colonized large parts of the Mediterranean and the Dutch had colonies all over the world.
But then again, the Dutch are indeed industrious (all those windmills and dykes...).

quote: Question - should Flemish cities be included? )

Yes. Should also include colonial cities such as Cape Town and New Amsterdam, IMO.

	15-10-2001 04:20									#3
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quote: Attributes: Commercial (EXTREMELY SO), and Scientific

commercial-yes
scientific-nahh, i think expansionist would be more historically accurate

	15-10-2001 04:58									#4
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quote: Hannibal, Hamilcar Barca, Hasdrubal, Hanno,

Didn't know the Phonecians knew cloning...

	15-10-2001 05:16									#5
	Do we want Phoenicians or Carthaginians? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Important question.

My vote goes for the latter. Carthage had more impact than Pre-Carthaginian Phoenician society. MUCH more.

Keep the UU the same, make the leader Hannibal, and the cities will be easier too.

I'd say Expansionist Commercial

Dutch...

I'll echo what was said before by Gangerolf. But the capital should be Amsterdam, followed by the Hague, Rotterdam, Appledorn, etc. etc. Make the colony cities like Cape Town and New Amsterdam further down the list.

Definitely commercial. Expansionistic - I don't know about that. That would make them spread quickly on a continent in the game, yet they didn't do this. Commercial Industrious (or maritime definitely if we make that a new type)

	15-10-2001 05:41									#6
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I'm actually thinking of editing out a certain Civ and replacing the Iroquois....... err, I mean, the anonymous Civ with the Carthaginians. I was going to use the War Elephant as their not-so-unique unit, and make the Expansionist/Commercial. That way they will have a special unit that actually has a graphic from the start and makes some sort of sense.

	15-10-2001 06:09									#7
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I personally favor the Phoenicians. Before I change the name, i'll wait for more opinions. Besides, if we make Hannibal the leader, we have the same dilemma as the Joan of Arc situation. I think Phoenicia is easier to put together, especially now that India has War Elephants.

I like your other suggestions though.

	15-10-2001 09:24									#8
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If we wanted a female leader I would consider Dido to be a great candidate for the Phoenicians. I would say commercial and expansionist as well.

I also like Wiliam as the Dutch leader.

	15-10-2001 17:15									#9
	female leaders for the dutch Got spare money?

hi just want to add my thoughts on the dutch. Although the past century hasn't been dutch golden age, they've been doing fine and they have sported a continuous line of Queens (Regentess Emma, Wilhelmina, Juliana, Beatrix). So maybe it would be a good idea to take one of them as the/a female leader (I mean head of state)? i would prefer Beatrix, for the current sort of successful (at least economically) dutch, third way pioneers, modern and European union focussed Holland.

Furthermore regarding the CSA, only commercial is appropriate, while any other isn't really. Only new CSA's such as maritime or agricultural/fertile would be appropriate.

	15-10-2001 18:02									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Fluyt is not a Caravel, but a Merchantman (subclass of the Ship-of-the-Line). Although many merchant vessels had cannons to protect them against pirates, this might make it less suitable for a UU in Civ3.

Last edited by Ribannah on 17-10-2001 at 16:39

	15-10-2001 18:21									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Regarding this UU for the dutch. Couldn't we have a merchant soldier which sells itself to the enemy and makes so much profit that we can make more soldiers? Or a ruthless merchant soldier which extorts and otherwise behaves unpleasantly towards enemy units and barbarians, but it would do less damage and instead of this damage it earns some gold or trade?

PS regarding the Fluyt, I would call myself a average dutchman regarding knowledge of dutch golden age (i.e. I am dutch and I grew up in the Zeeheldenkwartier in the Hofstad, did gymnasium with history exam), but I have never heard of it. So if it has such a low or even non existing name recognition with an average dutch person, how well does this bode for the approval of such the unit?

	15-10-2001 23:52									#12
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William of Orange sounds fine as leader of the Dutch.
Some military leaders:
William III (the stadholder, NOT the king), de Ruyter, Tromp
Some history for people who don't know:
In the 16th century Holland and Belgium belonged to Spain.In the middle of the 16th century the Dutch Provinces rebelled and fought against the Spanish. Soon it was clear that the Northern provinces (The Netherlands) would become independent, and the southern provinces (Belgium) would remain Spanish. In 1648 the Treaty of Munster was signed. But before it was signed, the Republic of the Seven Provinces, had her "Golden Century". Two wars at sea were won against England, and the Dutch ships were sailing everywhere, and were the leading merchant power. In the 18th century France and Engalnd were becoming more powerful, and England defeated the Republic three times at sea.
In 1795 (?) Napoleon conquered Holland and Belgium, and after the Era of Napoleon, Holland became a monarchy. In 1831 belgium declared itself independent, and in the 1839 belgium became offcially independent. and in the 19th and 20th centuries Holland and Belgium formed Themselves how they are today.

I hope this is correct, if you have corrections or questions then please tell me.

	16-10-2001 00:35									#13
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Tarquinius, you are largely correct, but the low lands at the sea were more than just the current Netherlands and Belgium. Also northern France and Luxemburg were a part of the Generaliteitslanden. These seventeen provinces were split up when after the Union of Atrecht (the current Arras) the Union of Utrecht was founded and the gap between the protestant provinces and the catholic ones was not healable anymore. The most powerful province of the seven united Netherlands was the province of Holland.

William of Orange was stadtholder of Holland and some other provinces. During the independence war against the spanish, probably earlier a peace could have been signed, but both Zeeland and Holland would not like that the city of Antwerp could function as a harbor again, so even with the final peace the blockade of the Schelde was legalized.

It took quite some time before the States declared tehmselves souvereign and that they did not need an imported King or something. Only at that moment a real Republic was created. I do not know if the Dutch or the Swiss were earlier in the invention of the Republic. The Orange Family did try to behave like souvereigns, and partly in contacts with other countries they had to play such a sort of role.

Napoleon made the Netherlands a Kingdom, and after he was gone just the King was replaced.

Just to make it clear: I do not live in Holland. Twente is not a part of Holland, but of Overijssel, which is a province of The Netherlands.

	16-10-2001 03:55									#14
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On the Dutch:
I don't have much time right now so I can't give an elaborate description but here are some things that definitely need to be mentioned in regard to Dutch history:
- struggle against the sea (from the records of Pliny the Old(?) to the creation of the province of Flevoland on the bottom of the former Zuiderzee and the Deltaworks in Zeeland)
- Hanseatic League
- Eighty Years War against Spain, in which the Netherlands gained it's independence
- Golden Age and colonial era (New York, Antilles, Brazil, South Africa, Indonesia, Japan, etc)
- Great painters (Van Gogh, Rembrandt, Mondriaan, etc)

As leaders there were only two that were really important. In the Netherlands they have the nicknames 'Father of the Motherland' and 'Mother of the Motherland', they are of course Prince Willem van Oranje and Queen Wilhelmina. Any other leaders would be much less suitable but if you really want alternatives, Prime-Minister Thorbecke (composer of the modern Dutch constitution), Queen Beatrix and King Willem II would be my favourites.

Unique Unit: Fluyt would be a good option but Privateer as well, a unit perhaps more familiar for at least the Dutch themselves (Piet Hein anyone?). In addition to the military leaders Tarquinius mentioned, I'd like to add Piet Hein. Possible wonders (if we want to cover those) would be the VOC (company that controlled the East Indies trade), Flevoland, Deltaworks or the Nachtwacht. As far as Attributes go, Commercial is a given but the other less obvious. I think Industrious would be a good choice though Maritime and possibly Scientific might be interesting alternatives.

Here's a little thing I composed earlier on the early years of Dutch history. I know it's too long but it's a start:

"For the most part the cities and provinces in the area known as the Low Countries developed independently from the 9th through the 14th centuries. From 1363-1472 the area was gradually assimilated by Burgundian Dukes. Eventually the lands passed by marriage to the Hapsburg Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V. Upon Charles's abdication in 1556 the lands reverted to his son Philip II of Spain. The Calvinist Dutch in the northern provinces especially disliked the Spanish Catholics. They feared the Inquisition would be brought to the Netherlands, and that personal and economic as well as religious freedom would be lost, so they revolted. Philip then sent Ferdinand Alverez, the Duke of Alba to bring order to the area. On August 8, 1567 the Spanish Duke of Alba entered Brussels as military dictator with some 10,000 troops, initiating the bloody Eighty Years War (1568-1648) in which the Netherlands would gain its independence. Thousands of people from both the northern and the souththern provinces fled the Low Countries, including the prominent noble Willem van Oranje (William of Orange), Count of Nassau. Alba suppressed anyone who opposed him including Willem van Oranje, whose lands he confiscated. The Calvinist northern provinces began allying themselves with Alba's enemies, namely Willem van Oranje. On April 1, 1572 the Dutch struck back, a navel force took the city of Den Briel (still celebrated as April Fool's Day in the Netherlands). The revolt quickly spread throughout the north. In 1572 the northern provinces of Holland and Zeeland acknowledged Willem van Oranje as their Stadtholder and a government was established in Delft.

In 1579 the southern regions of Atrois, Henegouwen and the town of Douay joined together for mutual protection under the Spanish king in the League of Arras (Artois). Soon thereafter, on January 29, 1579 the northern provinces united in the Union of Utrecht. In 1582 the large provinces of Brabant and Vlaanderen (Flanders) joined the southern alliance. This southern area, what is now know as Belgium, was predominantly Catholic, and included the provinces of Vlaanderen, Antwerpen, Henegouwen, Brabant, Namen, Luik, Limburg, and Luxemburg (Part of Limburg and Brabant are now part of the Netherlands and part of Luxemburg is an independent state). The northern provinces, on the other hand, were collectively known as the United Provinces of the Netherlands or the Dutch Republic, and were often referred to by the name of their principle province, that is, Holland. This northern Calvinist area consisted of the seven provinces of Friesland (Frisia), Groningen, Overijssel, Holland, Gelderland, Utrecht and Zeeland. From the formation of the Union of Utrecht these provinces were able to remain a separate republic but it was not until the Treaty of Westphalia, at the conclusion of the Eighty Years War in 1648, that the independence of the Republic of the United Provinces of the Netherlands was finally recognized. The southern provinces, which are now known as Belgium, was subsequently reigned by Spain, France, Austria, France again and the Netherlands until it finally became independent in 1839."

As far as city names go, please no Flemish cities Do you see Montreal or Quebec on an American city list or Porto on a Spanish? I rest my case...

Here's my suggestion for the Dutch city list. 50 cities, the first 35 are from a list of historically most important Dutch cities, as compilded by a group of Dutch historians. You need to make a very good case to dispute any of those... Only change I made was in the order: they were originally listed alphabetically. The last 15 cities I added myself to get to the quotum of 50.

Amsterdam - official capital of the Netherlands
's Gravenhage - political capital of the Netherlands (government seats here) (aka The Hague)
Rotterdam - world's largest port
Utrecht - very important city, capital of Utrecht
Middelburg - capital of Zeeland
Delft - capital of provisional government during Eighty Years War (Holland)
Vlissingen - very important port city in Zeeland
Deventer - important Hanseatic city
's Hertogenbosch - capital of Dutch Brabant
Maastricht - capital of Dutch Limburg, originally Roman city, Hanseatic
Nijmegen - originally Roman city, Hanseatic
Groningen - capital of Groningen, Hanseatic city
Amersfoort - important trade city
Kampen - important Hanseatic city
Zwolle - capital of Overijssel, important Hanseatic city
Leeuwarden - capital of Friesland
Haarlem - capital of (Noord) Holland
Leiden - important Renaissance age industrial, scientific and cultural city in Holland
Dordrecht - important port in Holland, Hanseatic
Gouda - important trade city in Holland
Roermond - cultural and religious city in Dutch Limburg
Alkmaar - important trade city in Holland
Breda - important trade city in Dutch Brabant
Arnhem - capital of Gelderland, important Modern Age city
Harderwijk - important Hanseatic city
Zutphen - Important Hanseatic city
Dokkum - important Medieval/Golden Age trade city in Friesland
Enkhuizen - important Golden Age port city in Holland
Sneek - important port and trade city in Friesland
Venlo - important trade city in Dutch Limburg
Zierikzee - important port city in Zeeland
Bergen op Zoom - important Medieval and Golden Age city
Gorkum/Gorinchem - important Golden Age trade city
Schoonhoven - important Medieval/Golden Age city (salient detail: most important means of existance was cultivation of hemp)
Veere/Kampveere - important Zeelandse post-Medieval port and trade city
Tilburg - important Medieval/Golden Age industrial city
Enschede - important Industrial Age industrial city
Assen - important trade city, capital of Drente
Eindhoven - important Modern Age city
Den Helder - important port in Holland
Delfzijl - important port in Groningen
IJmuiden - important port in Holland
Hoogeveen - center of Dutch peat industry
Nieuw Amsterdam - aka New York City & city near Parimaribo (Surinam)
Fort Oranje - name of colonies in New York State, Brazil, Ghana, Indonesia, Dutch Antilles, etc
Fort Nassau - name of colonies in New Jersey State, Brazil, Ghana, Senegal, Indonesia, etc
Kaapstad - aka Cape Town, important Dutch colony
Batavia - Jakarta, destination of most Dutch ships sailing to the Indies
Almere - recently founded, large supermodern city in Flevoland
Lelystad - recently founded capital of Flevoland



On the Phoenicians:
I'll have some stuff to say about them later. For now only a city list. BTW, I think as far as the name goes, we should keep that open, let Firaxis choose between Carthaginians and Phoenicians. IMHO we should just describe the history of the whole Phoenician civilization and let Firaxis decide if they want to cut out the first part or not...

Anyway, here's my existing city list:

Capital: Byblos - first mayor city (aka Gebal)
Cities:
Tyrus/Tyre - mayor Lavent (=Phoenician homeland) city
Kart Hadasht/Carthago - late capital; most important colony
Sidon - mayor Lavent city
Arvad - mayor Lavent city (aka Aradus/Ruad)
Gades/Gadir - mayor Spanish colony, possibly oldest city in western Europe (aka Cadiz)
Utica - mayor Tunisian colony
Hadrumet - mayor Tunesian colony
Ugarit - first (Syrian) colony
Marathus - mayor Lavent city (aka Tartous)
Tripoli - late Lavent city
Berytus - very late Lavent city (aka Beirut)
Baalbek - very late Lavent city (aka Heliopolis)
Zaraphath - Lavent city
Ushu - Lavent city
Accho - Lavent city (aka Acre)
Joppa - Lavent city (aka Tel Aviv-Yafo)
Dor - Lavent city (aka Nasholim)
Citium - mayor Cypriotic colony
Motya - Sicilian colony
Panormus - Sicilian colony (aka Palermo)
Nora - Sardinian colony
Sulci - Sardinian colony
Tharros - Sardinian colony
Malaca - Spanish colony (aka Malaga)
Sexi - Spanish colony (aka Almunecar)
Carmona - Spanish colony (aka Carmo)
Abdera - Spanish colony (aka Adra)
Baria - Spanish colony (aka Villaricos)
Eivissa - Balearic colony (aka Ibiza)
Tingis - Moroccan colony (aka Tangier)
Leptis - Lybian colony (aka Leptis Magna)
Sabratha - Lybian colony
Oea - Lybian colony (aka Tripoli)
Tacape - Tunesian colony (aka Gabes)
Neapolis - Tunesian colony (aka Nabeul)
Zama - Tunesian colony; famous battlefield
Hippo Diarrhytus - Tunesian colony (aka Bizerte)
Tipasa - Algerian colony
Siga - Algerian colony
Lixus - Moroccan colony
Mogador - western Moroccan colony (aka Essaouira)
Karatepe - Cilician city
Carthago Nova - Spanish colony (aka Carthagena)
Kerkouane - (minor) African colony
Thasos - Greek mining colony
Wasta - Lavent cultural centre
Umm el-Amed - Lavent cultural centre
Sarepta - Lavent agricultural centre
Palaetyrus - Old Tyre, ancient Lavent city

	16-10-2001 04:20									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Dutch leaders:

Ruler: William of Orange

Great Leaders:

Piet Heyn
Maarten Tromp
Michiel de Ruyter
Peter Stuivesant
Maurice
William III

	16-10-2001 05:47									#16
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Locutus -

Questions:

Should Antwerp be included?

I have seen Flemish/Belgian territories referred to as the Netherlands also. (Spanish/Austrian Netherlands as opposed to the early Republic of the Netherlands to the north).
Why shouldn't the others be included, considering Civ Games are supposed to be all encompassing with their civs (Can anyone say Iroquois?) and they wouldn't be in otherwise?

	16-10-2001 16:10									#17
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Alexander,
Belgian cities like Antwerp should not be included because Belgium and the Netherlands are two different countries and represent two different civilizations. Sure, they share a part of their history but so do Spain & Portugal (Roman empire/Arab rule/Reconquista/colonial age), France & Germany (Holy Roman Empire) and the US and Canada (Brittish & French colonies, gold rush). Belgium may have been called 'the (Spanish/Austrian) Netherlands' for a long time but the Byzantine Empire and Germany were both known as 'the (Holy) Roman Empire', doesn't make them part of the same civ as the Romans. Like explained above, the North and South went seperate ways with the formation of the League or Arras and the Union of Utrecht in 1579; but even long before that there were important differences in language, religion and culture (the seperation between north and south was by no means a random one). The reason why Iroquois and Zulu are 'all encompassing' is political correctness. The only other Civ in Civ3 that represents more than just the civilization which name it carries is Babylon, but this merely is because most of the Fertile Crescent civs ruled over exactly the same area and cities and, if included seperately, would have the exact same city lists (with only the capital different). The Netherlands and Belgium never shared any cities, Antwerp has always been clearly Belgium, Rotterdam clearly Dutch. As I said above, it's like having Montreal or Quebec as American cities: theoretically it might be a possibility (though not a very good one IMHO), in practice it's just not done. (Just think of all people that would be insulted and all the complaints Firaxis would be getting!)

	16-10-2001 16:27									#18
	Remove this text

Another Dutch Great Leader: Johan de Witt.

	16-10-2001 22:09									#19
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Locutus,
my compliments, good overview and comments.

Antwerpen, Brugge, Brussel, Rijssel (Lille), Atrecht (Arras), Luik (Liege), Duinkerken, etc. should not be called dutch cities, although they share part of there history together with the Netherlands.
Discussion about which cities to include are always possible. I would include a few more colonial cities like Paramaribo and Willemstad.

	16-10-2001 23:49									#20
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How about the Fokker as a special unit? Planes of Dutch design who did great work for the Germans in WW1, and also served in Dutch and Finnish airforces in WW2. The G.V. (ww2) had a 1:16 kill ratio.

	17-10-2001 00:18									#21
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Name variants
If Carthaginians are included, a good option for an adj would be "punic" which refers to both (phoenician and cathaginian)
History:
Alphabet.
They controlled the tin traffic, essential to build bronze weapons.
other Leaders: Himilco, Magon.

PS: Gades/Gadir: the first one is the roman name

	17-10-2001 17:48									#22
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BTW, Mark L, Peter Stuyvesant does not seem like a very suitable Great Leader to me. It's true that he was a 'great Dutch leader' but as I understand it, all Civ3's Great Leaders are supposed to be military men (generals and conquerors and stuff). Peter Stuyvesant was quite the opposite: rather than conquering territory from the American Indians, he improved relations with them and expanded mostly (if not exclusively) in a peaceful fashion. I agree on all the other suggestions though, and on the Fokker as a possibility for a Dutch Unique Unit (only problem is that it doesn't correspond with the Dutch Golden Age but other than that it's a good choice).

Waku,
Yes, and Carthago is Roman too. And 'Phoenician' is Greek. What's your point? Personally I would prefer names in the 'local' language as much as possible but if an alternative name has better name-recognition, I don't think it should be ignored. Which name should be chosen should IMHO be determined on a case-by-case basis, so in case of doubt I mentioned both and I'll let Firaxis decide...

	17-10-2001 17:55									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Waku History: Alphabet.

Some background details: the Fenicians were the
first ones to develop a written language, where the
letters stood for different nouns.

quote: They controlled the tin traffic, essential to build bronze weapons.

And they traded also with purple.

	17-10-2001 18:37									#24
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Two more Dutch leaders: Jan van Speyk and Karel Doorman.
In the naval battles during the 17th century the Dutch used the same type of ships as their opponents (mainly the English): men-of-war, fireships, frigates and ships-of-the-line. However, in all battles the Dutch ships were able to survive much more damage. Thereby, the Dutch achieved several victories in battles where they were clearly outnumbered.
http://www.marinemuseum.nl/uk/default.htm
Even today, Dutch warships are most notable for their defensive capabilities. During the Gulf War, Dutch (improved) 'Goalkeepers' protected the allied fleet against a possible anti-ship missile attack.
So IMHO the Dutch UU should be a naval unit with extra defence points.
One of the most famous Dutch warships of old is De Ruyter's flagship 'De Zeven Provinciën', a Ship-of-the-Line with 80 guns (1665-1694). If the name isn't already used in the game, I'd vote for simply Ship-of-the-Line (improvement over the man-of-war or frigate, whichever is in the game).

The Fokker is not a good choice since it is not related to the Golden Age.

	17-10-2001 18:50									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Planes of Dutch design who did great work for the Germans in WW1, and also served in Dutch and Finnish airforces in WW2.

Fokker DX - one of the most used Finnish fighters
in the Winter War, but one of the worst ones too.
Was also able to carry a small load of bombs.

	17-10-2001 18:55									#26
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dp

	17-10-2001 18:56									#27
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quote: The Fokker is not a good choice since it is not related to the Golden Age.

...and the name is pretty fu*ked up too.:

	18-10-2001 23:48									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well, it looks like we've just about wrapped up this thread. I'll polish it up a little bit, but I think it's time to move on to the next group.

Any further ideas are of course welcome.

	19-10-2001 19:31									#29
	Put an end to popups!

what do you mean 'wrapped up'? We don't have any kind of history or strategy yet for the Phoenicians and a very incomplete one for the Dutch. I have a lot to say about both civs but little time to say it (esp. since there are also half a dozen other threads in this very forum to keep track off...) Hopefully I'll have some more elaborate & complete comments sometime this weekend...

	19-10-2001 19:48									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Locutus I have a lot to say about both civs but little time to say it (esp. since there are also half a dozen other threads in this very forum to keep track off...)

Me too. I have a modem connection, so how on
earth should I be able to reply all interesting topics?
I could tell more, but I should cut my surftime.