15-10-2001 06:47									#1
	A thought on OCC Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

In Civ II, the OCC (One City Challange) was completed quite easily by tons of people, even on Deity.

If this continues to be true in Civ III, I'd be disappointed, as no single city should be able to win the game in any way. However, that'd also be a bummer for all the people who loved playing OCC, trying to improve their score, time, landing on AC, etc. What do you think?

	15-10-2001 06:58									#2
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It shouldn't be possible. Even the best of players should have a real hard struggle on deity. There must be games that can only be won very slimly even with perfect play. Unfortunately, this isn't about to happen. So long live OCC.

	15-10-2001 07:01									#3
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I cant beat occ deity
i betat it on prince, but thatts the hardest ive tried besides diety

	15-10-2001 07:09									#4
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It will quite probably be possible, it will just be a lot harder than in Civ 2.

	15-10-2001 07:59									#5
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I think it will be possible... probably not on diety though.

A couple of death blows to current OCC strategy.
Cant cash in carvans to build wonders.
Diplomat /spies abstracted, no buying off enemy units. (unless this can be achieved by another unit...)
Small wonders often have a pre-req of several facilities...

A couple of bonuses:
One city can win the Culutre victory. Thus OCC culture victory should be possible.
Civ specific abilities. Some civs may be easier for OCC (commercial and scientific comes to mind...)

Neutral:
Depending on how great leaders work it may be possible for an OCC player to get his fair share of great leaders for rushing Wonders...
Resources required for some builds, depending on how usfull Colonies are this may or may not be a problem. Also seeing OCC's dont need much military you may not need any strategic resources at all...

	15-10-2001 08:12									#6
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i think leaders will be too rare for much rushing but i believe cultural occ and space will be possibe, at the least on the easiest level

	15-10-2001 08:25									#7
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Chieftain in civ 3 is supposed to be easier than in civ 2.

People will definitely find ways to exploit the computer in OCC, so I expect that it will be beatable at least up to emperor.

	15-10-2001 08:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Blake I think it will be possible... probably not on diety though. A couple of death blows to current OCC strategy. Cant cash in carvans to build wonders. Diplomat /spies abstracted, no buying off enemy units. (unless this can be achieved by another unit...) Small wonders often have a pre-req of several facilities...

On the lower levels, I can beat OCC without caravans or diplomats/spies. Since they said the lower levels will be easier than in Civ II, I am assuming OCC will be too.

quote: A couple of bonuses: One city can win the Culutre victory. Thus OCC culture victory should be possible. Civ specific abilities. Some civs may be easier for OCC (commercial and scientific comes to mind...)

Right. Although I think some of the other methods of winning will be possible, too. I wouldn't be surprised to find the Science, Culture and Diplomatic victories possible here, although I wouldn't limit it to just that. There were people who beat OCC by taking over the world in Civ II
(I did this once in Zero City Challenge, in which I played the French on the small word map on Chieftain against England and Spain. I beat the game in 4 turns taking over the cities with my settlers before they could build any defensive units ).

quote: Neutral: Depending on how great leaders work it may be possible for an OCC player to get his fair share of great leaders for rushing Wonders... Resources required for some builds, depending on how usfull Colonies are this may or may not be a problem. Also seeing OCC's dont need much military you may not need any strategic resources at all...

They said Great Leaders were a very rare occasion. I doubt the spending on units, defense and the loss of a trade partner due to war would be worth the Great Leader.

The resource problem is my biggest concern about OCC in Civ III. You may have to sacrifice many pop points to get workers, or if you can capture some enemy workers. I think, however that having that wonder- and building-filled city will expand the city borders a bit, alleviating this problem a little. You can then trade unused resources for those you need.

As far as civ-specifics go, I think the best would be a combination of scientific, commercial and/or industrious. I think my first OCC will use a "modified" civ, with an upgraded worker for a special unit and all the civ abilities (even Militaristic, because it gives you the Warrior Code or Wheel), on Chieftain, against 15 civs (for 15 trading partners) just to start out in the shallow end.

	15-10-2001 11:38									#9
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OCC on Chieftan sounds reasonable...but anywhere else it should be an absolute ***** to do. Civ II, from what I've seen, was way to easy. Very unrealistic.

	15-10-2001 15:05									#10
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Well SMAC was relatively straightforward for OCC, as you had many features to help you, ie, crawlers so you could bring in extra minerals and construct energy parks within your borders to bring in the science. You could even reasonably comfortably win. I have never tried it on civ2, but it would strike me as very hard without these features to give you a bit of an advantage...

	15-10-2001 15:37									#11
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In Civ 3 with OCC, i dont think you would be able to get leaders easily at all. Also, most small wonders will not be buildable by you. The ones that have requirements of 5 banks, or 5 SAMs will be very difficult to get with only one city!

I read somewhere that wonders might also require resources to build, making the job of building the ones you are allowed to even harder.

I believe that getting an OCC victory will come down to how much culture you can produce with just the standard buildings in your city, and just if the AI/barbarians will allow you to stay alive.

	15-10-2001 16:09									#12
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good god. how was it possible to win OCC anyway? i mean what can you possibly produce in one city. how do you win the game? beats me....

	15-10-2001 16:20									#13
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There is one thing about Civ3 that I haven't seen anyone mention, and I would have thought it would be a boost to OCC. And that is the change in the support method for units.

No longer having even the possiblity of having to support units with shields should be a big boost to OCC. As long as your economy is strong enough, you'll probably be able to support quite a number more units than you would have in Civ2, and it won't hurt new construction at all.

Or is there something about the new support system vs. the old that I am missing?

	15-10-2001 16:25									#14
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Provided the AI can recognise a potential winner and is self-interested enough to declare war even if its natural attitude is to be nice to a weaker power, there should not be a problem. A single city cannot support enough troops to keep its territory from being pillaged provided the AI can muster an effective attack. We will just have to see if the programming has left flaws that can be exploited. OCC is all about exploiting flaws. One rich city may be able to support more units but that may not help if it can't produce armies.

	15-10-2001 17:42									#15
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some thoughts...

The OCC strategy was not discovered until late 1999 on these forums. Game had been out for 3 years. was hit and miss until Paul wrote the definitive guide, which opened it up to all. First time OCCers, if they're not Deity vets, generally take 2 or 3 tries to win the game that way, even following the guide.

Truth is, it wouldn't be that easy if some guys hadn't paved the way. And the nature of TBS allows us to duplicate other's tactics.

Next...

I'm wondering if you could get some leaders by winning battles against barbarians, thus making it not so neccessary to go against your trading partners.

There are some serious difficulties, like being able to gather the resources for trading that you can sell for increased profit, more difficult with one city.

	15-10-2001 21:18									#16
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Please. OCC will be done on Deity by Dip, Space and Culture within 3 months of the game's release.

	15-10-2001 21:37									#17
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Please. OCC will be done on Deity by Dip, Space and Culture within 3 months of the game's release.

your point being....?

	15-10-2001 21:47									#18
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I would be very impressed if you could secure a culture victory in an OCC. You have to accumulate 100000 culture, and with only one city, you don't have much chance

	15-10-2001 22:00									#19
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from the ask the team site

quote: Philip, Here's a quick primer on the new victory conditions in Civ III: *A cultural victory can occur if one of your cities amasses 20,000 culture points, or if your entire empire amasses at least 80,000 culture points and no rival civ has more than half of your cultural value. (These values may fluctuate as we test them out, but you get the general idea.) *The diplomatic victory condition is enabled after the United Nations wonder has been built. Once built, the UN will meet periodically to vote on a leader. Any civ that receives a majority of votes from the U.N. council wins the game. The catch here is that in order to even be on the U.N. council (and thus eligible to be elected U.N. leader), you must either control 25% of the world's territory or population. The civilization who builds the United Nations wonder automatically gains a permanent council position. *The domination victory occurs if you control a majority of the world's land surface within your borders. This can be achieved through various means, either by cultural tactics or military ones, or a combination of both. *Finally, if the game ends and no one is victorious by any of these, the game uses a "histograph" to determine the winner. The histograph averages the "score" of all the remaining civilizations, taking into account their score across the entire game. The civ with the best average "score" wins. Thus, your performance in ancient times is every bit as important as in the modern era

so a cultural OCC might not be too bad

	15-10-2001 22:14									#20
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Something else to consider would be stopping the computer from winning first. That is ofcourse assuming the computer can win using the same means as the player. Wouldn't be very fun to have 19000 cultural points, but have an AI civ win by controlling the majority of land mass or leading the UN. I suppose you could turn those victory conditions off, but...

	15-10-2001 22:46									#21
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well i am positive that the player can win an OCC on deity

it is just a matter of manipulating the game

first thing to do is to play on a tiny world (60x60 4 civs)
i think the best civ to choose would be either a Sci/Com (Greeks) or Rel/Com (Indians) or Sci/Rel (Babylonians) working on trying to maximize culture, money, and tech

the Greek and Indian CSUs would also be helpful to the OCC, the Greek Hoplite giving you extra defensive power, and the Indian War Elephant not requiring strategic Resources to build

also when you take a city of any size you can choose to capture it or to raze it, so you could use conquest to further your cause without having to have more than one city

i would also want the weakest culture opponents so I would choose the following: Com/Ind (French), Mil/Com (Romans), Mil/Ind (Chinese) and I would especially avoid the Egyptians (Rel/Ind)

so here is the setup

Tiny World
Deity
All Victories On
Player civ: Greeks or Indians or Babs
AI Civs: French, Romans, Chinese

this setup will allow a rather quick OCC win imho