15-10-2001 17:41									#1
	Great leaders, armies and wonders... Remove this text

Having though a little bit on the subject this is what I think:

1-The first thing to build is the heroic epiC(small wonder) so GL are easier to get.
2-As soon as U get a GL U create an army(no point waiting)
3- Get a military victory with the army (any victory AFAIK)
4- Build Military Academy(small wonder)

Know U can build any number of armies U want( with the 1 army per 4 cities limit)

And know only use GL's for rushing wonders....

I guess this takes a little of the theoretic use for GL which is great MILITARY leaders, not wonderfull wonder builders.

This though is based on this (which wasn't denied by Dan) - GL do not give any boost to the army defense or attack ratings i.e armies are the same created by GL's or By M. A. Wonder

Another thing about armies, AFAIK they just Pool HP's. I really don't see much of an use for that, especially because in a counter attack by the computer in a delicate situation (just outside a city) would mean instant death of the army...

I'm still trying to understand the full benefit of an army...
-Does it have multiiple attacks? (it has to, if not it will be useless)
-Can it make hit'n'run attacks? (Useful)

I wonder...

	15-10-2001 19:50									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

AFAIK the armies can move arround as a pack of units and
the enemy has to defeat all the units, if it wants to
smash the whole army.

	15-10-2001 20:26									#3
	Re: Great leaders, armies and wonders... Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Rege Having though a little bit on the subject this is what I think: 1-The first thing to build is the heroic epiC(small wonder) so GL are easier to get. 2-As soon as U get a GL U create an army(no point waiting) 3- Get a military victory with the army (any victory AFAIK) 4- Build Military Academy(small wonder) Know U can build any number of armies U want( with the 1 army per 4 cities limit) And know only use GL's for rushing wonders.... I guess this takes a little of the theoretic use for GL which is great MILITARY leaders, not wonderfull wonder builders. This though is based on this (which wasn't denied by Dan) - GL do not give any boost to the army defense or attack ratings i.e armies are the same created by GL's or By M. A. Wonder Another thing about armies, AFAIK they just Pool HP's. I really don't see much of an use for that, especially because in a counter attack by the computer in a delicate situation (just outside a city) would mean instant death of the army... I'm still trying to understand the full benefit of an army... -Does it have multiiple attacks? (it has to, if not it will be useless) -Can it make hit'n'run attacks? (Useful) I wonder...

Hmmm

You can only build the Hero Epic small wonder after you get your first great leader ( which will probably be used up in the process, who knows )

The armies according to everything I've read do not have multiple attacks, they function instead as ne big unit. However as an army adds together all the hit points of the units within, and the hitpoints in the game are set at a constant, if you put three units together you are in effect getting a unit three times harder to destroy. Your armies will therefore mostly be what you use for sacking cities, cities will be defended the same way as always and patrol of your borders and short hit and run attacks will be conducted ( logically ) by small single units.

As for what to do with your GL I don't know. I agree with it mostly but I'd suggest keeping as many GL as you can as a 'just in case' thing as you only have a finite supply.

	15-10-2001 20:26									#4
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Dan of Firaxis said that sometimes, the only way to take a heavily fortified city is to use an army.

Food for thought...

	15-10-2001 21:26									#5
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To Rasbelin - If U attack a well defended city your army will be fragilized(?) so any counter attack by the computer will finish off the army for sure. Your army attacks the best defensive unit the computer has. then it attacks with the strongest att unit...

To Faboba- I think that to build heroic epic u don't need a GL, only to build military academy (of couse I can be wrong). But what's the point of pooling Hp's instead of separated units? If U put each one on each of the city's surroundig squares, the the AI counterattack will only kill 1 or 2 of your units. If they are "stacked" in an army the AI will destroy it completely with 1 or 2 good attacking units...

To Jason - I even think that armies will be better to defend than to attack because if CIV III is like CiV II if U have barracks U can have the army defending- a very strong defensive unit - that is fully repaired every turn = One impregnable city.

	15-10-2001 22:42									#6
	Very interesting posts Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I too, as with many other diehard civ fans locked in anticipation of civ3 have wondered these questions about armies, GLs and such... Maybe the next time Firaxis updates civ3.com they'd answer some of these questions...hint hint Firaxis

	15-10-2001 23:27									#7
	Got spare money?

I would really like more information too as those issues are one of the most interesting new aspects of the game.I really hope Armies are useful, not just a good idea, bad implementation...

	15-10-2001 23:38									#8
	Re: Re: Great leaders, armies and wonders... Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Faboba You can only build the Hero Epic small wonder after you get your first great leader ( which will probably be used up in the process, who knows )

I'm fairly sure you not only have to have a GL but he also has to have won a battle before the Heroic Epic becomes possible. This is meant to be very hard because of the massive advantages armies bring.

quote: Originally posted by Rege I think that to build heroic epic u don't need a GL, only to build military academy (of couse I can be wrong). But what's the point of pooling Hp's instead of separated units?

Yep, armies pool hitpoints but hitpoints may no longer exist in the same for. For all Firaxis' answers we're going to have to wait to see what all this means in practice.

But Rege, your plan is exactly what Firaxis seem intent on preventing us human players from doing. Building an horde of armies and over running every other civilization would be too easy.

David

	16-10-2001 00:06									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Rege To Faboba- I think that to build heroic epic u don't need a GL.

Well I'm sorry, you think wrong. It's confirmed that you DO need a GL to build the hero epic. When you get your first GL the Epic become available for construction.

It's not your fault, we can't all be right.

	16-10-2001 00:12									#10
	Re: Re: Re: Great leaders, armies and wonders... Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Crouchback I'm fairly sure you not only have to have a GL but he also has to have won a battle before the Heroic Epic becomes possible. This is meant to be very hard because of the massive advantages armies bring.

You're probably right. All I know is you need one.

I'll consult the dark sites list of confirmed info.......

Nope the only confirmed info they have is :

quote: For example, the Heroic Epic becomes available to build when you've made your first Leader. Heroic Epic raises the chance to spawn a Great Leader(GL).

	16-10-2001 00:55									#11
	Re: Great leaders, armies and wonders... Increase Your PM Length

quote: [SIZE=1] That's a pretty good summary, Grumbold. IIRC, losing a city won't force you to disband an army, the only time your number of cities is checked is when you're actually trying to produce an army. One thing you had wrong was the number of units in an army: it's 3 unless you have the Pentagon (Small Wonder), then it's 4. You always need a Great Leader to build an army, unless you've built the Military Academy (Small Wonder), then you can build armies without them. The catch here is that before you can even build the Military Academy, you need to have an army that has been victorious in combat. IMHO, the only real motivation for using an army is that you get to pool hitpoints. Consider that if you have the Pentagon and you put 4 elite units into an army, you've got TWENTY hit-points to play with during an assault. It allows you to even the playing field somewhat if you have a lot of weaker units and you need to take out a couple of stronger ones, but it doesn't tip the scales so far that you're going to see warriors taking down a tank. Dan

I didn't know that to build the Eroic Epic a U had to have a GL but it makes sense how could U create an "heroic epic" without a leader-hero...

Now I'm wondering if the non-militaristic players won't have problems since Heroic Epic, Military Academy won't be possible without great leaders ( and those would be diff to get for a perfeccionist)

I'm sure Firaxis's testings made the game balanced and great...

	16-10-2001 01:44									#12
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When the pyramid have the same function as in civ 2 it is also a quiet useful wonder. I wonder what ability is linked with pyramids, commercial or industrial?