16-10-2001 00:58									#1
	Air Defenses Prevent Paradrop Suffering from ads?

Okay, what's with this message anyway? Even when I'm trying to insert paratroops at the edge of an opponent's territoy, having emptied out the base with my air units, which are hanging there right next to the base, somehow the AI still has the air superiority to prevent my drop into the base. In the meantime, the situation can be reversed, and the AI can drop in just about anywhere, regardless of location or my relative strength with the AI opponent. And oh by the way, in this latest game I even had the new SP that gives you air bases at all bases (Cloudbase Academy?).

Now, I realize the program has to indulge certain variances to maintain balance, but this seems so blatantly one-sided as to be distracting. Indeed, one must wonder why he should undertake the effort to build such units at all, if they can't be used for their most important purpose. On the other hand, perhaps there's a key to this to enable my drops that I'm just not getting. I'm up for suggestions or insights into this recurring scenario.

	16-10-2001 01:16									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

I think it's the aerospace complexs that prevent the airdrops, not the presence of needlejets. From what I remember the only way around this is to have the project that allows orbital insertions.

	16-10-2001 01:27									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, it's the aerospace complexes, and the CBA ought to work the same way for you in preventing enemy attackers with drop-pods.

Still, you are only excluded from dropping into a two-square radius around the protected base. Plenty of room to drop in nearby and just walk into the base. That's where the Xeno Dome truly comes in handy, since you can drop into those undefended fungus patches and slip into the back of the base.

	16-10-2001 01:35									#4
	i don't think it's aerospace complexes Enter the AD-FREE zone

well, i get the same message despite the fact that sven has no aerospace complexes. at first i thought it was because he had planes/helicopters in there, but that wasn't it either. maybe it's his AAA garrisons? i think that might be what it was...???

actually, i think i was STILL unable to drop into his territory even after i killed off his defenders! i can't quite remember, though.

forgive my retardation, i really don't know, and i'm confused about it too!!!

also sucks that my drop probies can't drop into an enemy ZOC because they're not considered military units...

	16-10-2001 01:55									#5
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Give your probies synthmetal armour, and then they will be considered millitary units.

	16-10-2001 02:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by nickersonm Give your probies synthmetal armour, and then they will be considered millitary units.

Are you certain of this as it was not my experience. Armouring probes meant they defended normally against conventional attack BUT they were still probes and would die with the last conventional unit if stacked. My probes would never move after drop and always were barred from enemy ZOC on the drop. If your experience is different please elaborate since I would have to go back and test this again.

	16-10-2001 02:58									#7
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As for as I remember Non-combat units can't drop inside enemy land even WITH armour but you can drop a military unit first and then probes at the same square. That works.

The Secret Project referred to above is of cause The Space Elevator, also a well debated phenomenon in a related thread.

,,,,,,

	16-10-2001 03:03									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Regarding the problem dropping into Sven's undefended bases, if they are sea bases you can't drop into them no matter what. This may have been the problem you were having.

	16-10-2001 10:25									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 As for as I remember Non-combat units can't drop inside enemy land even WITH armour but you can drop a military unit first and then probes at the same square. That works. ,,,,,,

Here's a cheap workaround for that little problem. Just implemented the idea in a game I finished today.

Get yourself a hovertank chassis and select the probe enhancement for its weapon. Then tack on some drop pods and armor to taste. Drops unassisted right into enemy territory, though it still can't slip past the aerospace complex defenses. [I wonder if Blink displacer would allow a unit to bypass air defenses? Has anybody tried that?] Anyway, my "Drop Mechanized Spec-Ops" unit [I went unarmored, BTW] performed infiltrations and tech thefts just like a regular probe team. One even managed to swipe a size 10 base from Dierdre

- Scipio

	16-10-2001 18:48									#10
	Sven and the Paradroppers Increase Your PM Length

actually the bases in questions were not sea bases. i had already tried that and it didn't work .... svennie boy took over an island right next to my continent and had 3 bases on it, which were the ones i was trying to drop near. well, it doesn't really matter at this point - i sent some choppers over there, killed his defenders and then dropped into a non-base square and took over the bases. i just don't know why i wasn't able to drop into a base square (by base square i mean one that's in the base's production radius), even with a regular military dude.

i'll have to try it again and see if it works, and if not, see what all he has in the base - AAA guys, planes, choppers, aerospace complex, etc....

ever notice how sven doesn't care too much about his land bases? he seems to not build them up or give them good defenders. they were pretty easy to take over.

	16-10-2001 19:47									#11
	Sven and the Landlubbers Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Bella Hella ever notice how sven doesn't care too much about his land bases? he seems to not build them up or give them good defenders. they were pretty easy to take over.

Sven is a dope. He will build all of these sea bases right next to great land areas, and will even terraform the land so that his production depends upon them. But will have no land bases to claim the land itself. To strangle his production during wartime, just send in a needlejet colony pod to the island, and suddenly half his units must disband for lack of mineral support. Very much fun!

	17-10-2001 00:18									#12
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just reporting a bug while its on topic. i was trying the "upgrade the crawler to a more expesive model" thing to speed an SP, and the model i upgraded it to had drop pods. "Hey! look at that! i can just drop it into the base instead!" i said. little did i know that my own air defences were preventing the drop. has NE1 ever seen this before?

	17-10-2001 21:39									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks for the insight on the aerospace bases, I do remember something like that now, but I'm not altogether certain that applies in my scenario. I'll have to check it out.

	18-10-2001 07:24									#14
	Put an end to popups!

On a related note... Did you know that an air transport can drop a unit with drop-pods anywhere, regardless of aerospace complexes and interceptors? A chopper transport gives you the best max range, but will return with high damage. Of course, if you don't care if it returns you can really reach out and touch someone! This is probably common knowledge, but I had to find it out for myself. Now if I could just land a loaded air transport on a carrier deck!

	18-10-2001 10:40									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you are reporting that you cannot drop into even your own bases due to air defenses, this is a bug that was fixed in version SMACX v.2.0.

I have not been able to drop a probe team of any chasis or armor configuration into enemy controlled territory.

I think the presence of either defensive airpower or the presence if an airbase prevent airdrops.

I further think a plane in airbase made by a former will similarly protect up to two squares radius.

The Space Elevator has no effect on any of the above in my experience.

Ned

	18-10-2001 14:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I have not been able to drop a probe team of any chasis or armor configuration into enemy controlled territory. Ned

Try dropping the probe ino the same square as one of your combat-units. That should work.

	18-10-2001 20:21									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

See my previous note on Drop Mechanized Spec-Ops units [playing SMAX from a Planetary Pack install]. I dropped them via Space Elevator inside Gaian [vendetta] territorial boundaries unassisted [i.e. they were the first and only unt dropped]. They were restricted by air defenses to landing well outside an abandoned base's production radius, and, unlike weapon equipped units, they could not move immediately following the drop. Not sure why others are describing problems dropping probe equipped units into enemy territory. There does seem to be some contradictory experiences being described, though.

- Scipio

	18-10-2001 21:01									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Scipio, I have used the configuration you describe, drop armored hovertank probes, but have not been able to drop into enemy controlled territory IIRC. I will reload a saved game and give it a try, though.

Ned

	19-10-2001 01:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If you are reporting that you cannot drop into even your own bases due to air defenses, this is a bug that was fixed in version SMACX v.2.0.

at the time i think i had SMAC v.4.0

	19-10-2001 01:41									#20
	Tired of ads?

Airdrops work exactly as they should for me...
A couple of points:
* As mentioned earlier in this thread, if you have the Space Elevevator (or is applied gravitonics?) you can airdrop into enemy controlled territory... so the rules are different late in the game.
* You cannot airdrop into an enemy units ZOC. (I think this is for both non combat and combat units) hidden units in fungus can cause some unexcepted warnings...

	19-10-2001 01:51									#21
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Even pre-Space Elevator, I'm fairly sure I've made drops into enemy turf within the 8 square range [or whatever the default drop range is]. This usually involves dropping across a small bit of water separating the hostiles.

Drop is pretty pointless if you have to march all the way in from outside of hostile territorial boundaries.

	19-10-2001 02:08									#22
	Put an end to popups!

I shoulda said "enemy controlled airspace", the territory borders are just lines on a map....

	19-10-2001 03:23									#23
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ned Scipio, I have used the configuration you describe, drop armored hovertank probes, but have not been able to drop into enemy controlled territory IIRC. I will reload a saved game and give it a try, though. Ned

Just to make sure we're on the same page... when you say enemy controlled territory are you refering to faction boundaries [the colored dashed lines] or air defense/combat unit ZOCs [not shown on the map]?

	19-10-2001 03:54									#24
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One thing I forgot to mention, again for those that don't know: dropping units (or more correctly, unloading them) from an air transport lets them attack w/out penalty on the same turn, and is not subject to zones of control. Ok, air transport pimpage mode off...

	19-10-2001 11:31									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Scipio, Huh? It worked! I dropped an armored probe into the fungus 3 square from Rose's capital!

However, just for competeness sake, I had previously dropped combat units on this square and moved them forward to Data Decentral. Maybe that makes a difference.

Also, I did have the Space Elevator.

Ned

	19-10-2001 11:57									#26
	Suffering from ads?

I would think you could have dropped the probe in even if you hadn't sent in combat troops.

Out of curiousity, were you able to move the probe [on the ground] after it dropped? Mine wouldn't move, but I believe regular drop combat units can move after drop?

- Scipio

	19-10-2001 13:25									#27
	Got spare money?

No, the probe unit just sat there.

Actually, if a probe can be dropped like that, they would be just as effective as a plane on blocking reinforcements. The probe, after all, cannot be bribed.

Ned