16-10-2001 08:18									#1
	What to do after losing the palace? Support Apolyton

I had just started a game, and founded the third city when two barb archers appeared next to my capitol(defended by a warrior) and destroyed it the next turn. I was dismayed, and considered restarting, but being obstinate, I continued. It turned out to be very educational. I have attached the .sav at the moment of infamy. If anyone wants to try it, post your observations. With no palace, you get no trade, and very little science.

Attachment: ne_b2750.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	16-10-2001 15:41									#2
	Remove this text

This happened to me in a very casual MP game (it had AI controlled civs in it and all human players were peaceful). I continued, went for Masonry to rebuild the palace and managed to build LW as my first wonder. Then I used the warrior to musketeer upgrade and fought with the AI. It was fun!

I will give it a try.

Carolus

	16-10-2001 15:43									#3
	Remove this text

BTW, 2.42 or MGE?

Carolus

	16-10-2001 18:05									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The game is 4.2 My loss of a palace seemed to slow down the AI . It took me until b425 to get a palace, but the AI had not yet started any wonders. I will later post a .sav with wonders. The barbarians were a very tough problem as you will see.

	16-10-2001 21:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The AI tries to keep pace with you in research, but it does not run away from you when you are down. Odd, but probably done to keep the game entertaining while still learning...

C Rex has it right - get masonry from either a hut or from another civ, then build a new palace. It is a big setback, as that becomes a new priority that precedes all others to get your game back on track.

Or make it the newest challenge game - win while starting in despotism with no palace...

	16-10-2001 21:21									#6
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i had this occur to me in a MP game too.. it is very frustrating and i bleeive impossible to catch a human player once you lose your capital so early

	17-10-2001 05:27									#7
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I think it would be hard to set the rules for a game where you START with no palace, but are allowed to build it as soon as you get Masonry. There are too many loop holes to make that an easy win. For instance what do you do if Masonry is a starting tech? Easy win. What do you do if you get Masonry by lucky hut tipping / momentum style conquering?

A more serious challenge would be :
1) sell palace upon 1st city founding.
2) disallowed from ever building a palace for the entire game

A palaceless OCC might be kind of interesting too!

	17-10-2001 06:44									#8
	I think I remember that game! Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin i had this occur to me in a MP game too.. it is very frustrating and i bleeive impossible to catch a human player once you lose your capital so early

Basically if you lose your capital and don't have construction you are stuffed - unless you can get it rebuilt very quickly. Its less of a problem in SP games though because the AI doesn't get too far ahead.

	17-10-2001 10:38									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I didn't think you could sell your palace...

	17-10-2001 12:02									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You can't.

There was a challenge along the lines suggested by freshman some time ago, but I can't remember whether it was regular AC, conquest, OCC or something else.

Carolus

	17-10-2001 17:31									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

I also believe that there was a despotism challange that was successfully completed a while back.

In civ I you could sell your palace, and when you built your next city you would get a free palace. By using a field of settlers, you could generate 6000 a turn just selling palaces and creating new capitals. It was nice to see this flaw corrected in civ II.


AH, Masonry not construction.


RAH

	17-10-2001 18:00									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by freshman I think it would be hard to set the rules for a game where you START with no palace, but are allowed to build it as soon as you get Masonry.

Not difficult, really. Once you settle your second city, abandon the capitol - let bararians capture/destroy it. Your second city has no palace - edit rules.txt so that no palace can be built, et voila! Save as a scenario and have at it...

	25-10-2001 01:00									#13
	My attempts... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

... so far.

Gentlemen, my logs!

First try

2750 Warrior (rushed) in Heliopolis
2700 Elephantine (F)
2400 Code of Laws (D)
2300 Exploring horse killed by barbs
1500 Barbs land next to Memphis and capture it

I surrender.

*Carolus Rex spits in his hands and rolls up the shirt sleeves*

Second try

2700 Elephantine (F)
2400 Code of Laws (D)
1450 Alexandria (F), science box is almost full…
1400 Monarchy (D), Memphis builds settler and can't support warrior…
1300 Revolution
1250 Proclaimed King (same science rate (18 turns/discovery) as when in despotism, but better food and shields)
975 Pi-Ramesses (F)
900 Giza (F)

The place is crawling with barb archers (but no kings )! Must be a barb city in the fog of war to the west...

800 Masonry (D), Memphis switches from Courthouse to Palace
725 Disbands a horse in Memphis and buy one shield (Palace ready in 4 turns)
600 Palace built (I was careless and had one turn in disorder when city grew to size 3 ))
500 Bronze Working (D)
350 Currency (D)
175 Map Making (D), Byblos (F)
50 El-Amarna (F)
25 Trade (D)

120 Mathematics (D)
160 Giza builds LH
180 Memphis builds MP, I traded a lot of techs with the AI here but captured by the game I forgot to log which ones

340 Memphis builds HG
360 Astronomy (D)
480 Colossus built in Memphis

I have continued the game until about 1400 AD, without logging though. I have built CO and MC and I am now Consul. Science is slow, I went over the line in trading techs with the AI.

I have played very carelessly and without the necessary patience. I think I will be pleased if I land before 1900 AD...

Carolus

Last edited by Carolus Rex on 25-10-2001 at 01:08

	25-10-2001 01:11									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Come to think of it, I have Shake's too.

Carolus

	26-10-2001 06:44									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq C Rex has it right - get masonry from either a hut or from another civ, then build a new palace. It is a big setback, as that becomes a new priority that precedes all others to get your game back on track.

A natural idea. But there are no huts and no other civs in the vicinity. Only barbs.

I tried a start but I was slower than Carolus:
675 Masonry
475 Palace

I noticed a strange thing: the waste disappeared just in the moment when the production was switched to the Palace!
Unfortunately the corruption ended only when the Palace was finished...

	26-10-2001 09:20									#16
	Support Apolyton

yes for some reason you get no corruption when the build orders are set to a palace.

	26-10-2001 13:18									#17
	Waste or corruption? Put an end to popups!

Either way, I didn't notice that!

Carolus [hoping it is corruption that vanishes ]

	26-10-2001 14:24									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

you're right,it is waste.

	27-10-2001 16:39									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

fortunately it never happened to me in the early game, it did happen during middle ages or similar though, so it was never a problem to build a new palace and take the old capital back

in one of my first games (on chieftain), I lost the capital to the mongols, because they had nuked it and enetered it with a paratrooper

the following war was bloodier than all world wars counted together