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Martinus
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of Poland
Jun 2001
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosacrux
Yeah, sure... Mao and (especially) Stalin were vile dictators, surely in the "genocidal" league, but they also were great leaders: Stalin reformed a less-than-zero agricultural economy to build the most impressive industrial wonder since the industrial revolution and Mao created a modern society, dropping the feudal elements and getting the major powers out of China.
OTOH Pinochet and Markos were bloody dictators with one and only concern: How to stay in power.
I think there are visible distinctions between those two categories, don't you think so?  |
Of course there are differences. Markos and Pinochet were bloody dictators, like many in the history, while Mao, Stalin and Hitler were genocidal madmen. There is a LOT of difference between both groups (btw, the debatable quality of the Stalinist "industrial wonder" nothwithstanding, Hitler also gave Germany best roads in Europe of the time - I don't think that makes him better than, say, Mussolini or Franco, who were simply out of his league )
quote:
Torah-Old T. and the rest? Bah 
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Yup I know. But people still buy it
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Rosacrux
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In a Galaxy far, far away...
Oct 2001
time: 05:15
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Martinus, what the heck are you talking about? Do you know anything about those leaders beside the fact that they are commonly called "dictators"?
Stalin's industrial wonder was the most impressive achievement of the 20th century - economicaly wise. He managed to create an economy with an anual growth rate of 20% (yes, 20%) and maintain it for 9 years - WW2 stopped the economic miracle of USSR.
Russia was an agricultural nation, with only half a dozen factories before 1920. After Stalins reform USSR (Russias reincarnation) was #2 in industrial production - outnumbered only by USA... :rolleyes
Hitler? No the German economy bloomed only for a brief period, thanks to the massive military spendings, while the German state bend to corruption and manipulation by the big corporations - some people still suggest that the leader of Nazi Germany wasn't Hitler but Krupp... do you even know who Krupp is? I think some of the widely known concentration camps on Polish ground (Auswitz and the likes) were working for Krupp...
And Hitler builded on the #2 industry of Europe, not on an agricultural middle ages state like USSR...
Mao? You know what China was before the communists? A playground for the European, American and Japanese big corporations, a puppet state with no authority and the most corrupted regime in the whole world.
If you fail to recognize what he did for his country, you are simply a fool.
So, what do you mean "they are in the same league" refering to Hilter Stalin and Mao? Did Stalin start a war? Did Mao? Did Stalin gathered jews, gypsies and gays from the whole Europe and sent them to the gas chambers? Did Mao?
When you try to compare apples with oranges, try to understand first what apples and what oranges
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:15
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edit: never mind, i'm stupid. 
Last edited by Eli on 30-10-2001 at 19:52
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jpps1
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Jdd, I took a course in Jewish History, and let me tell you, your history is SPOT on.
By the way:
Ruler: Solomon. Made peace with God, his people, and his neighboring countries, beginning Israel's golden age.
Leader: David. For military reasons.
Wonders: Ark of the Covenant/Ten Commandments(Major)
The Torah(Major)
Yeshivah(Minor)
The Holy Temple, now just the Western Wall(Minor)
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jpps1
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My opinion would be commercial/religious.
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PMLF
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Rio de Janeiro,Brazil
Jul 2000
time: 05:15
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In my opinion Jerusalem must be the Israeli/Hebrew capital city.
Jerusalem was the most important city for the Ancient Hebrew people. Nowadays, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (more than 60% of its population are jewish and Knesset is placed there).
Last edited by PMLF on 07-11-2001 at 09:15
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Martinus
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of Poland
Jun 2001
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosacrux
Martinus, what the heck are you talking about? Do you know anything about those leaders beside the fact that they are commonly called "dictators"?
Stalin's industrial wonder was the most impressive achievement of the 20th century - economicaly wise. He managed to create an economy with an anual growth rate of 20% (yes, 20%) and maintain it for 9 years - WW2 stopped the economic miracle of USSR.
Russia was an agricultural nation, with only half a dozen factories before 1920. After Stalins reform USSR (Russias reincarnation) was #2 in industrial production - outnumbered only by USA... :rolleyes
Hitler? No the German economy bloomed only for a brief period, thanks to the massive military spendings, while the German state bend to corruption and manipulation by the big corporations - some people still suggest that the leader of Nazi Germany wasn't Hitler but Krupp... do you even know who Krupp is? I think some of the widely known concentration camps on Polish ground (Auswitz and the likes) were working for Krupp...
And Hitler builded on the #2 industry of Europe, not on an agricultural middle ages state like USSR...
Mao? You know what China was before the communists? A playground for the European, American and Japanese big corporations, a puppet state with no authority and the most corrupted regime in the whole world.
If you fail to recognize what he did for his country, you are simply a fool.
So, what do you mean "they are in the same league" refering to Hilter Stalin and Mao? Did Stalin start a war? Did Mao? Did Stalin gathered jews, gypsies and gays from the whole Europe and sent them to the gas chambers? Did Mao?
When you try to compare apples with oranges, try to understand first what apples and what oranges |
Jeez, it is you obviously who doesn't know what you are talking about. Before calling me a fool, try to recall millions of people killed by Stalin and Mao in Russia and China respectively.
Haven't you heard of gulags? Of Ukrainian famine?
You are clearly letting your political views cloud your reason. Go, wave your red flag
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:15
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There are many proposed leaders which should not be included since they are of too little significance, or very modern (Shamgar and Barak are judges in Israeli high court!)
I suggest to add:
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Benjamin, Josef, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samson, Saul, David, Solomon, Jonathan, Joab, Hezkiah, Nehemia, Ezrah, Juda Maccabeus. Then jump: Herzel, David Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Golda Meir.
As for the leader - either David or Solomon or David Ben Gurion.
They were the top 3 figures in my view in Jewish history.
The 2 remaining should be great leaders.
Hebrews changed their ways along the ages.
During the resettlement of Kanaan they were Religious / Militaristic
During the kings Religious / Commercial
Later became Scientific / Commercial and stayed that way.
Some may argue that during the 50s and 60s Israel was militaristic. I hold the opinion it was forced on them.
Depends which time we want to capture.
As for the unique units, Zealots would be old. Though the official writings claim otherwise, the rebelions were more nationalistic rather than relgious as from ancient times there were many different religious movements.
Slingers are the UU of David's tribe (Benjamin IIRC) not the entire Israelite nation.
I'd personally like to see the UU either a Markavah - a damn ass kicking tank
or some sort of a Mossad Agent unit.
Needless to say I'd like modern Israel to be represented as well.
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You got a valid point there Martinus! Surely nowadays you would only need to replace one of the two... let's say instead of Canaan use "Palestine" |
Sorry to involve politics but that's a pretty ignorant claim.
The conflict is political, not moral, or relgious as many try to present it.
The [terracts vs. small-scale war] blood shedding here is nothing at all like a genocide. You should read up on the defenition of genocide, and read some really impartial (instead of objectivist) reports.
Btw, I do think we deserve the scientific thingy.
A) Current research suggests it was the hebrews, not Phoenicians who invented the alphabeth.
B) We wrote the Bible - one of the biggest and most well known books of moral / relgious / social laws and regulations. Though most of the suggested reasons are religious, the true explanations behind the laws are fascinating and show much common sense.
We had a social security system in the 5th century AD. How many of you can say that?
C) Jesus christ - the moral reformist, was jewish.
D) Isaac Einstein. Need I say more?
E) Israeli exports:
Most of the computerized systems in arms around the world
The MMX chip and now Pentium 4 (All developed in Israel by Israeli scientists)
ICQ
F) We're the best damn hackers in the world together with the Russians. We just keep a much lower profile.
We have one of the best intelligence organizations in the world.
G) More than half of the world's comedians and jokes are jewish 
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IncreduloDriver
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of the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution
Nov 2001
time: 13:15
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Rosacrux's post is perhaps one of the most insulting posts I have ever seen.
quote:
Originally posted by Rosacrux
Stalin's industrial wonder was the most impressive achievement of the 20th century - economicaly wise. He managed to create an economy with an anual growth rate of 20% (yes, 20%) and maintain it for 9 years - WW2 stopped the economic miracle of USSR. |
This is certainly NOT true. This is one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever heard, even from a communist sympathiser. Estimates for GDP growth of the Soviet Union between 1928 and 1937 range anywhere from -3% to 25% FOR THE ENTIRE PERIOD. Certainly *not* per annum. If you want sources, I'll provide plenty, upon request.
As with any post-war economy, basically no matter what economic system you choose (or have forced upon you), you're going to experience some growth. War completely destroys an economy, especially a war as terrible as the Russian Revolution. As proof, I point to post-war Japan and Germany (especially the latter, which was completely wrecked).
quote:
Russia was an agricultural nation, with only half a dozen factories before 1920. After Stalins reform USSR (Russias reincarnation) was #2 in industrial production - outnumbered only by USA...
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See my comments below the quote about Germany being #2. I have reason to doubt both.
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Hitler? No the German economy bloomed only for a brief period, thanks to the massive military spendings, |
That brief period of bloom was thanks to massive military spendings. As I said, there's nowhere to go but up when you're at 0--and that's certainly where Germany was after WWI and the Depression. You can't be a communist sympathiser without being a National Socialist economic sympathizer, because the two economies were run remarkably similarly (does "forced labor" mean anything to you?).
quote:
while the German state bend to corruption and manipulation by the big corporations - |
To say nothing of the corruption of Stalin's Soviet Union... oy vei!
More on the "big corporations" stuff later.
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some people still suggest that the leader of Nazi Germany wasn't Hitler but Krupp... do you even know who Krupp is? I think some of the widely known concentration camps on Polish ground (Auswitz and the likes) were working for Krupp... |
I'll try to stick to the facts in my post, and keep the speculations and hypotheses out.
In any discussion about Nazi Germany, don't let Krupp steel [sic] the spotlight away from Hitler. Never forget who the main man really was.
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And Hitler builded on the #2 industry of Europe, not on an agricultural middle ages state like USSR...
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I don't have the comparative data of all the countries of Europe throughout the GD, but I have serious reason to doubt your claim, especially considering the HUGE mistake earlier about Soviet industrialization. I do know, however, that Germany was in an absolute stank pit during the depression, in large part thanks to Allied efforts at Versailles, and if Germany's economy was #2 when Hitler took the wheel, the rest of Europe was probably living in the stone age.
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Mao? You know what China was before the communists? A playground for the European, American and Japanese big corporations, a puppet state with no authority and the most corrupted regime in the whole world.
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*I* know what China was before the communists (also, feel free to take a peek at my location). Before the Communists in 1949, China was a Japanese-occupied slaughter-fest, with fights frequently breaking out between the KMT (Nationalists) and CCP (Communists), as well as with the Japanese. Wracked with decades of civil and foreign war, any end to the war, whether the victor be communist, nationalist, or falangist, would bring about economic progress. However, it wasn't big corporations that ran the show, it was big governments.
Now, let's take a look at what China *could have been,* had the Communists stayed out. All you need do is look at Taiwan and multiply its GDP and standard of living proportionally. Taiwan is governed by the KMT--the same KMT that was penniless and powerless in 1949. Now, Taiwan is a democratic economic powerhouse. Go figure!
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If you fail to recognize what he [Mao] did for his country, you are simply a fool.
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This quote I find particularly offensive. Mao did unify his country--an amazing task for a country as large as China. However, he then proceeded to take that country and rape it. Thirty years, a "Great Leap Forward" (AKA 30 million dead famine-fest), and a "Cultural Revolution" (AKA a few million non-conformists dead bloodbath) later, China finally emerged from the ashes of Marxist-Leninist thought and started to pursue a market economy, which has resulted in 300% growth over the last 20 years (compared with, at most, 60% growth over 30 Mao years, starting from ground zero).
quote:
So, what do you mean "they are in the same league" refering to Hilter Stalin and Mao? Did Stalin start a war?
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I seem to remember some sort of devastating revolution which supposedly promised peace and prosperity to the impoverished working classes, and I seem to remember Stalin playing a part in that...
Yes, war against (South) Korea (you remember MASH, don't you?) and Tibet. The problem is, nobody came to help Tibet. As for Korea, 1 million comrades dead, look where Marxist-Leninist North Korea is today.
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Did Stalin gathered jews, gypsies and gays from the whole Europe and sent them to the gas chambers? Did Mao?
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No, I'll concede this point--Stalin and Mao weren't nearly as selective in the massive slaughter of their citizens. Stalin didn't target any specific minorities. He just targeted the average working Joe, whom he was supposedly to protect. Same with Mao. When you're dealing with upwards of 50 million killed under Stalin and Stalin's successors and 35 million at the hands of Mao, [laying on the sarcasm as thick as it comes for the rest of this sentence] I guess it becomes important to differentiate those dictators who killed minorities and those who killed members of the majority ethnic group. And all this time, I thought *government execution of /any/ innocent person was bad.*
(All this talk of massive slaughter still doesn't say anything about the horrendous living conditions in which the [luckier] citizens of communist countries lived.)
As for "big business," as usual, sympathisers of communist regimes use this /straw man/ in an attempt to undermine the morality of a market economy. However, what Rosacrux and others fail to understand is that "big business" in Nazi Germany and any other authoritarian country cannot exist without the support of the government. In fact, the "big business" of Nazi Germany can hardly be called business at all, in the American/Western sense. Industries built on the backs of slave labor provided by the government are not industries at all, but another form of state-owned enterprise operated by a few lucky citizens with political pull. It draws attention away from the real issue--the similarity and guiltiness of Hitler, Mao, Stalin, and every other dictator--and (unjustly) shifts it to American and Western European capitalism and individualism.
I was quite disappointed by Firaxis' inclusion of Mao for the Chinese. That's exactly the same as including Hitler for the Germans. I think it's an insult to 35 million Chinese whose blood is on his hands to call him a great leader. There are plenty of other Chinese historical figures who would've made much better leaders of the Chinese people (Deng Xiaoping or Sun Yat-sen get my vote), but I suppose there's not much one can do about it now...
All dictators stink, it doesn't matter if you dictate a big huge country that has an arms race with the US or not. Massive execution and forced famine stink. Period. There's no justifying the death of innocents. To do so is to morally sanction the act of murder. And if you do that, you're exactly the same as those who've done it, only less consistent.
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When you try to compare apples with oranges, try to understand first what [are] apples and what [are] oranges |
My advice to you is simple: "Practice what your preach."
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SeferKoheleth
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Soloman should be the leader.
Cities:
Jerusalem
Hebron
Tvzat
Tiberias
Jericho
Shilo
Shechem
Giliead
Masada
Gamla
Dan
Betar
Yafo
Yavneh
Eliat
Tel-Aviv
Generals:
Moshe Dayan
David
Devorah
Attributes: Religious/Commercial
Special Unit: Zealot (upgraded archer)
Golden Age: Ancient
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26-10-2001 03:29
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for your answer on Mao and Stalin.
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