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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I suggest to add:
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), Benjamin, Josef, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, Samson, Saul, David, Solomon, Jonathan, Joab, Hezkiah, Nehemia, Ezrah, Juda Maccabeus. Then jump: Herzel, David Ben Gurion, Moshe Dayan, Golda Meir.
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I'd have to disagree on Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Benjamin (assuming you mean Jacob's son), Josef (same assumption), Moses and Aaron. Abraham through Joseph weren't leaders of the state of Israel while Moses and Aaron were religious leaders, not military.
(I'm assuming you're talking about the list of leaders that are available to civilizations through combat.)
Marc
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Harel
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Ramat Hasharon, Israel
May 1999
time: 05:15
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A few things. Israel should certainly not be a religious state. It should be a scientific-militaristic nation.
For UU: Zealots? Oh, come on! What's that has to do with anything? Why not the Merkava, the best tank in the world? Or the Saar, a unique missile boat? How about the Levi is a modified interceptor? You got plenty of modern Israeli tech to choose from, no need to turn Israel to some sort of fanatic religious nation.
For leaders, I would love to see Yizhak Rabin name in there. A solid tribute to one of the best military leaders in history.
For cities, how about:
Herziliya
Rishon Lizion
Ramat Hasharon
Kfar Saba
Soham
Ashkelon
Mevesert
Metola
Rosh Pina
Kiryat Shmona
Last edited by Harel on 16-11-2001 at 03:43
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SeferKoheleth
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> A few things. Israel should certainly not be a religious state. It >should be a scientific-militaristic nation.
Harel,
What planet of arch-secularism do you come from? I'm a proud MOT myself (as you can tell from my handle)--- but the greatest thing we gave the world, the thing that makes us stand out as special-- was our faith and holy texts. All the commercial, scientific, military and industrial giants we've produced because of our faith binding us together. Would Herzl exist without Rambam? Would Ben-Gurion exist without Ben-Yishai?
The Hebrews/Israelites are DEF a religious civ. I'd throw in commerce too, if nothing else than the glorious stereotype of Jewish bankers/money lenders (quite true in the Middle Ages-- as only Jews could lend money on interest, and we're forbidden from entering most professions). Of the remainder... scientific makes the best argument. But I'd still vote religious/commercial.
>For UU: Zealots? Oh, come on! What's that has to do with >anything? Why not the Merkava, the best tank in the world? Or >the Saar, a unique missile boat? How about the Levi is a >modified interceptor?
You seem to be centered on Modern Israel as the pinnicale of Jewish/Israelite existence. Modern Israel is 6 million people on a planet of 6 billion-- it's hardly worthy to be considered one of the greatest civs to ever walk the planet. But the community of Israel from Ancient to Modern stands out, especially the ancient part.
Still-- I'll agree there's argument about the UU. Maybe the Merkava-- but certainly not the Levi (it didn't warrant getting produced!! after all...).
Yet, for sheer uniqueness, I'd stick with the Zealot-- better titled the Maccabee! After all, the Maccabean rebellion was perhaps the FIRST guerilla war in history, and the FIRST rebellion ever fought for religious/national freedom. It was the Maccabean tradition that won the freedom of the Second Commonwealth.... and continued through the period of the Zealots all the way to the Haganah/Irgun
>For leaders, I would love to see Yizhak Rabin name in there. A >solid tribute to one of the best military leaders in history.
I hope you mean the generals and not the leaders and that you'd rank Yizhak Rabin above Soloman!! Yitzhak Rabin was a brilliant general, but a Neville Chaimberlian-wannabe as PM, who facilitated the blossoming of a terrorist state within Israel's mist. Even as a General, I'd rank Rabin low-- certainly below
Joshua, Devorah, Sampson, David, Joab, Judah Maccabee, Shimon Bar-Kochba (EVERYONE's forgotten about him... but he kicked Roman ass for 3 years), Moshe Dayan etc..
>What about Ashdod! It's the fifth biggest city in Israel!
>Btw, from where are you?
I agree, Ashdod should be there. But I think the Modern Cities should come last on the chart-- after all, they were chronologically established AFTER cities like Hebron, Bethlehem, and Gamla. Granted, the city chart should include importance as well as chronological (i.e. Jerusalem should come before Hebron, even though Hebron's connection is earlier), but just as Shilo isn't important now, Ashdod wasn't important during Israel's golden age as a national entity-- the Davidic Monarchy.
Oh... I'm from many places-- but the best answer would be Philadelphia, in the US. Future Israeli... looking to make aliyah in a few years.
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Harel
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Ramat Hasharon, Israel
May 1999
time: 05:15
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Modern Israel is the pinnacle of the hebrew people. Their actual size today is not relevent at all. Also, Israel was hardly ever a religious state by definiation (except the time of the Sahandrin). Sure, it was a one-religion nation: but then again, which nation wasn't back then? Israel invented Monotheism first, and that's IT. It's no more religious then the first culture that discover monotheism in Civ. It's NOT religious, and never was a religious state. Religion never dominated our life: for crying out loud, for most of Israel time the absloute majority of Israelies were non-practicing jews! If anything, we are more jewish today then ever.
What it did have was a military and scientific edge, at any given time along all our history. Without doubt, Israel should be a scientific-militaristic nation. We talk about religion all along, but it has very little actual impact on our society and history. We were just the first: that doesn't make us religious.
About your obiviously right-winged titled opinion, it just doesn't hold water. Rabin led the most historically succesful war ever fought on the face of the Earth. By any right he should be up there with Neoploen, Alexander the great and Atila the hon. Dont' let your political opinion get the best of you. Rabin was a tactical genius. He was also the best PM Israel ever had, by any defination (social, economical and political). Israel blossomed under his rule. Unlike now, when we get MORE bombing and the economy is gone.
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Harel
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Ramat Hasharon, Israel
May 1999
time: 05:15
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Israelies.
With Ben-Gurion as supreme leader.
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SeferKoheleth
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Civ Name: Hebrews. All other names refer only to a portion of Hebrew history-- Israelites to the Davidic period, Judeans to the Second Commonwealth, Israelis to the modern etc. Only Hebrews remains thoughout as a universal identifier. As a second choice I'd probably choose Jews-- but technically that only refers to the post-Davidic period when 10 of the tribes lost their individualized identities.
Harel- touche with your ad hominem there. I agree Rabin was a good general (although HARDLY in the same categoy as Alexander the Great). You blast my opinion of Rabin as "right wing"-- I'd argue that to call him the greatest PM in history is ridiculously left wing. He signed a pact that has, by nearly EVEYONE's estimation, proved disastourous, making the mistake of trusting Arafat. His economic policies were built on a house of cards, and contributed greatly to Israel's current prediciment by spending, taxing, and regulating too much. Israel's greatest PM has been David Ben-Gurion-- who led them through independence, the great aliyot, and the early struggles to stay free. No question. But Israel's greatest leader in HISTORY was certainly Soloman.
If you think that Jews (or Hebrews) have been a primarily secular people for 2000+ years you are seriously deluded and there's no point arguing the matter. Even in Israel today, I'd argue that only a majority of Ashkenazim as secular. Most Sephardim are traditional and deeply religious, although not "Orthodox" per se.
BTW, I'd suggest two new Wonders, with explanations:
The Great Temple: Gives the benefits of a temple to every city. Immediately gives the advance of Monotheism. Also builds Palace in the city that builds it.
Requires: Mysticism.
Explanation: Built by the Soloman, the Great Temple solidified Jerusalem's place as the Hebrew capital. It also centralized the Hebrew sacrificial cult in one location, eliminating the need to continue worship at paganesque "High Places." Under the reign of Josiah, the alternative worship places were destroyed, and the Temple rededicated.
The Bible: Every Temple functions as a library (note: build BOTH the Temple and the Bible, and get a free temple + library in every city). Also gives the advance of Monotheism.
Requires: Polytheism
Explanation: The study and commentary on the Bible generated a strong system of religious education among Jews, creating near universal literacy.
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Maccabee2
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King Locutus, perhaps we are already relaxed. It's just a healthy debate, and historical at that, not religious or political as you imagine. Disagreement shows healthy self respect, and debate, carried on with an open mind, results in learning.
I especially appreciate your historical summary, as you can guess by my handle.
Your work shows a great investment of time and study. Thank you.
To clarify the issue of the destruction of a tribe ordered by God, according to the OT ( a document with historical value as well as religious), these people were the Amalekites. Modern archaeology has found remains of the
Amalekites of Saul's day. According to some sources, tests of the remains showed signs of the ravages of an unknown disease. Whether contagious or inherited (congenital) perhaps God was sparing the world from another awful plague.
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Maccabee2
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"Civ Name: Hebrews. All other names refer only to a portion of Hebrew history-- Israelites to the Davidic period, Judeans to the Second Commonwealth, Israelis to the modern etc. Only Hebrews remains thoughout as a universal identifier. As a second choice I'd probably choose Jews-- but technically that only refers to the post-Davidic period when 10 of the tribes lost their individualized identities."
Sefer, you wrote it far better than I could. I must agree whole-heartedly.
Also, thank you for correcting that gentleman about the nature of Jewish culture -- definitely religious-commercial. It has been both the burden and glory of the Hebrew people, some would say even their deliverance, second only to God. Also, Jews would be my second choice as well.
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SeferKoheleth
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>I'd disagree with the free advance. The building of the Great >Temple didn't precede the Jewish belief in one god-it came after.
I agree-- the free advance is a way to work it into the game. Since the Temple WAS an ancient wonder, it doesn't make much sense to place it in the Middle Ages, after Monotheism or Theology. So the next best alternative is polytheism or mysticism... but the problem with that is that, historically, the Temple WAS monotheistic (at least during the GOOD kings of Judah).
So I solve this dilemna by giving Monotheism as a free advance. Not totally accurate, but a good fit for the game.
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Harel
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Ramat Hasharon, Israel
May 1999
time: 05:15
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By who's definiation, exactly, did it prove distatrous? Not me, and not the majority of the people in Israel. Oh, it's a fine trumpet for Benjamin Netnayhu and Sharon to blast in order to place the blame on their deads. There was nothing wrong with Rabin approach, and there was a steady approach toward peace, that Bibi managed to destroy. Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope.
About the economy: sure dude, you are WAY wrong. Rabin built a very strong economy. He may have caused a huge deficit, but he spent billions of dollars in improving Israel high-way systems, replacing the outdated phone systems with state-of-the-art technology, and openned the industry to forgien investors. In 1990 Israel was barely a third-world nation, on blockade for most of the european and eastren companies. We didn't have cable TV, almost no electronics and cars to choose from, computers cost like heck, no one heard of the internet... it was a backwater nation. By 1994 we were a westren economy and the fastest growning economy in the west. Rabin laid the foundations that even Bibi in his folly couldn't destroy. The one who destroyed the economy was, without doubt, Bibi - who took drastic economical steps that just doesn't work in Israel economy, and pushed away most of the forgien investors with his political and economical approach.
Ben Guryaon was a sentimental idiot, who openned the country for the current orthodox-occupation by being soft and caving in the only right time to stop the orthodox-leechs on their tracks. He made many gravious mistakes, and he is certainly not such a worthy PM.
And solomon? HUH! Fairy tells, legends and stories. Another king, with the only difference that in his time the kingdom was huge, streching along from Euthopia to Syria.
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:15
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Errr.... Ethiopia? Solomon?
I think he had some influence there because of a few marriages, but he didnt rule there.
quote:
By who's definiation, exactly, did it prove distatrous? Not me, and not the majority of the people in Israel. Oh, it's a fine trumpet for Benjamin Netnayhu and Sharon to blast in order to place the blame on their deads. There was nothing wrong with Rabin approach, and there was a steady approach toward peace, that Bibi managed to destroy. Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope |
Right. 
Steady approach towards peace includes giving guns to those who were teaching their children to kill Jews? Or is it ignoring the incitement, only because cancelling the agreements is not comfortable(and we know what it led to)? And i'm not talking about the Mitzubishi yet...
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SeferKoheleth
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Let's see.... Rabin ignored massive incitement, ignored flagrant Oslo violations, such as Arafat building up a 50,000 person army... oh, I'm sorry "police force." The suicide bombings in the first few years of Oslo FAR exceeded the deaths from terrorism during the intifada. The fact was that prior to Oslo, the PLO was broke due to its support of Iraq in the Gulf War and the loss of funding from its Arab benefactors. The intifada, pre-Oslo was about sticks and stones-- not bullets and mortars, and was already dying down on its own. Had Rabin the betzin to tell the world to f-ck off until Arafat fulfilled his obligations and teached his people peace, in Arabic, Israel would be in a much better situation.
>In 1990 Israel was barely a third-world nation, on blockade for >most of the european and eastren companies. We didn't have >cable TV, almost no electronics and cars to choose from, >computers cost like heck, no one heard of the internet... it was >a backwater nation.
Uh... let's see, in 1990, NO ONE ANYWHERE had heard of the internet, and the world was in a mild global recession. Much of the TRUE economic opening happened under Bibi. Bibi, however, was constrained by Rabin's massive deficits and payoffs to the unions, and the need to devalue the shekel.
Israel hasn't been a 3rd world nation since the 50s, btw. Trust me, I've been to both Israel and lived in the REAL 3rd world (Bolivia, Zaire, Mexico etc.)
>Sure, there were bombings: but hey, there are always terrorist >attacks in Israel. At least there was an aim, a hope
There was hope in Britian around 1938.... would you still praise Chaimberlain?
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Harel
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Ramat Hasharon, Israel
May 1999
time: 05:15
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I am sorry my friend, maybe you did visit Israel but you have no idea about what it is. I've visited all over the world, and Israel prior to the 80th was no better then a third world nation. The economical state may have been better, but in matters of growth, technology, electronics and available material Israel was extreamly backward. If you argue with that, then you haven't spent enough time in Israel. I remember it when every trip to a foreign nation brought a list of numerous electronics items, from computers to toaster ovens: things you just couldn't get here, or only with very high prices and small selections.
The true economic happening occured under bibi? What planet are you living on? The economical growth plummed from 9% to 4% and lower, and unemployment soured to an all-time number. We had 3% of unemployment under Rabin, now we suffer under 10%. Every fact points against you. In terms of foreign investments, growth rate, extent of import/export, everything dropped under bibi. All those economical reforms, the psuedo-american nonsense, just doesn't work in Israel social climate. Devalue the shekel? Drop the inflation rate? Well, we got a 0% inflation rate now. Weee. Happiness. So useful when you don't have a job or anything to spend it on.
The fact is, the economy was far better under Rabin. All the economical terms and slogans bibi used are of no avail. Go and ask the people in the street about the economy. That's what matters, in the end.
Actually, the deaths under the intifida far supress anything we seen in the suicide bombings, even today. I've served in the army, so I just happen to know. It was far worse back then. And it was certainly not dying on it's on.
About waiting... so easy to say it from far away. Sorry, just plain wrong. The palestians will see reason when they have their own nation, not a minute before. Another year of waiting is another year of senseless deaths. You have no true grasp of the sitution, and the mentallity of our neighbors. Forgive me I don't share your American opinion to blow everything I don't like to smithering (Afganinstan, anyone?)
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:15
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quote:
I am sorry my friend, maybe you did visit Israel but you have no idea about what it is. I've visited all over the world, and Israel prior to the 80th was no better then a third world nation. The economical state may have been better, but in matters of growth, technology, electronics and available material Israel was extreamly backward. If you argue with that, then you haven't spent enough time in Israel. I remember it when every trip to a foreign nation brought a list of numerous electronics items, from computers to toaster ovens: things you just couldn't get here, or only with very high prices and small selections.
The true economic happening occured under bibi? What planet are you living on? The economical growth plummed from 9% to 4% and lower, and unemployment soured to an all-time number. We had 3% of unemployment under Rabin, now we suffer under 10%. Every fact points against you. In terms of foreign investments, growth rate, extent of import/export, everything dropped under bibi. All those economical reforms, the psuedo-american nonsense, just doesn't work in Israel social climate. Devalue the shekel? Drop the inflation rate? Well, we got a 0% inflation rate now. Weee. Happiness. So useful when you don't have a job or anything to spend it on.
The fact is, the economy was far better under Rabin. All the economical terms and slogans bibi used are of no avail. Go and ask the people in the street about the economy. That's what matters, in the end. |
Agreed. In terms of economy Bibi caused only damage.
quote:
Actually, the deaths under the intifida far supress anything we seen in the suicide bombings, even today. I've served in the army, so I just happen to know. It was far worse back then. And it was certainly not dying on it's on. |
I dont think so...
The first Intifada was a real popular uprising, they almost never used real weapons, and suiciders started exploding only in the end of the Intifada.
I dont know how many people were killed in the years of the first Intifada, but I believe that it's far less than in the year of the current one.
quote:
About waiting... so easy to say it from far away. Sorry, just plain wrong. The palestians will see reason when they have their own nation, not a minute before. |
Who will see reason? The children that are/were taught to kill the "sons of the pigs and the monkeys"(Jews)?
quote:
Another year of waiting is another year of senseless deaths. |
But what will happen 5 years after the Palestinian state will exist? Can someone guarantee that the incitement will not stop? And if it doesnt stop, all the agreements will become useless.
quote:
You have no true grasp of the sitution, and the mentallity of our neighbors. Forgive me I don't share your American opinion to blow everything I don't like to smithering (Afganinstan, anyone?) |
There are more than enough Israelis who share his opinions. I dont think that they are also "dont understand the mentality of our neighbors".
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tmarcl
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Baltimore, MD USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
>I'd disagree with the free advance. The building of the Great >Temple didn't precede the Jewish belief in one god-it came after.
I agree-- the free advance is a way to work it into the game. Since the Temple WAS an ancient wonder, it doesn't make much sense to place it in the Middle Ages, after Monotheism or Theology. So the next best alternative is polytheism or mysticism... but the problem with that is that, historically, the Temple WAS monotheistic (at least during the GOOD kings of Judah).
So I solve this dilemna by giving Monotheism as a free advance. Not totally accurate, but a good fit for the game. |
Actually, putting it under Mysticism might not be such a bad idea. By the time of the Great Temple, the Jews had pretty much codified their system of beliefs into a religion-the Great Temple would be the expression of that, IMO.
Of course, I'm one of those who feels Mysticism should be renamed to Religion, and be put *after* Polytheism.
Marc
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sulla
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of the Conservatives
Feb 2001
time: 05:15
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All incredible ideas
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Solomyr
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Seattle
Oct 2001
time: 21:15
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jdd,
call it the Hebrews and be done with it. we are strangers thoughout the world, and homeless for 2000 years before the modern state. and, IMO, i think the Golden age should be ancient. that's when the temple stood, that's when we had our kings, judges, prophets. however, a moden golden age would let the UU be a Masada unit. a special forces unit. upgraded marine, with stealth, no nationality markings, and spy/diplomats capibilities.
as far as the wonders, i like every temple functioning as a libary, as that is how it really is in jewish tradition, in my experience. but giving a temple to every city IMO would unbalence the games since all similar wonders have been removed or altered. it could double or triple the effect of temples, without expireing like the oracle. unless of course it was destoryed  
and finally, it is nice to see such a livily discussion going on.
two jews, three opinions might be true, but 14 jews on apolyton gets us 2.435*10^18 opinions
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RedSox7
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New Hampshire
Nov 2001
time: 05:15
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Eventually, through the efforts of Great Britain, the United States, and thousands of dedicated Zionists around the world, the new state of Israel was founded in 1948 with David Ben-Gurion as Prime Minister. They came into immediate conflict with the neighboring Arabs and angry Palestinians, but won their wars in the '60s and occupied the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and Sinai Peninsula. The Sinai was fazed back to Egypt, but the other areas are still under Israeli occupation today. Israel is currently involved in a bloody struggle with the Palestinians over the creation of an independent Palestinian state. [/QUOTE]
Locutus, adding this civ is a good idea. I have some suggestions to make about the history, though. First, the British did more to hinder than to help. They disarmed Israeli's whenever they could and turned weapons and forts over to the Arabs when they left. Second, Arab-Israeli wars were fought in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973. It is inaccurate to say "won their wars in the '60s". Third, a note for the record. The occupied territory was won in wars that Israel fought for its survival as a nation. If the Arabs had won in 1948, then Israel would not be in existence today.
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15-11-2001 11:33
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