18-10-2001 09:28									#1
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Was doing some scenario testing and found some interesting things about sensors I didn't know:

They confer a 25% defense bonus against air attacks;

They confer a 25% defensive bonus against psi attacks (I think I actually did know that, but read on);

If you have built your base on one (as Vel recommends) or if there is one in range, and you take the attack to the enemy from within your base (rather than defending) the enemy unit gets the +25% defensive bonus. This is also true if you are attacking a mindworm from within your base - it gets the +25% bonus to its psi rating.

One learns something new almost every day with this game.

Googlie

	18-10-2001 10:13									#2
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When running sea formers on auto pilot I have noticed that every once in a blue moon they will build a sensor array in the middle of the ocean. I have no idea if these 'sonar bouy' are effective. In all the time I've been playing, I've only seen 2 or 3 of them. BTW, there is no option for a sea former to build a sensor array in the manual terraform menu.

- Scipio

	18-10-2001 10:47									#3
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I've had formers buld senors when I wanted solar collectors a lot of times.

But I never noticed a sensor giving an advantage to an enemy before.. IIRC you can change the alpha text to include sea sensors. Don't know is they work though.

And your right Googlie. I have been playing for two years and I still come across new things both from playing the game and reading these forums..

	18-10-2001 11:13									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Following your post I opened my test scenario again, and placed a sensor array in the ocean and built a base over it.

No effect on defense at all, either air, sea or against amphibious units. Interestingly even a land-based sensor confers no defensive bonuses on units in a sea base.

But I did learn something again that I don't think I knew. A perimeter defense in a sea base is virtually useless. It confers no defensive bonus against attack by a ship (which is the most common way of capturing a sea base) nor agaisnt aircraft or choppers. It's only use is against amphibious-equipped troops disembarking from a transport, and when was the last time you used those to take a sea base?

A naval yard, of course, confers the 100% defense bonus to your seabase against ship attacks, as does an aerospace center against attack from the air, but in both cases you lose the 25% intrinsic base defense (in other words, the facility ups the 25% to 100%, as does a perimeter defense for land bases).

And on a related topic, if you are a big user of bunkers (and I admit I'm not) - don't place any on squares adjacent to a base - if you strike out from within the base agaisnt a unit in one of these squares, they get the +50% defense bonus. (And if you also have a sensor within range .......... see above)

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 18-10-2001 at 11:36

	18-10-2001 11:38									#5
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Wow. Good stuff to know. So the sensor just has to be in range of the unit you are counterattacking for it to get the defensive bonus? Or does the positioning matter, like if the unit is closer to the sensor than the base is?

The perim defense on sea bases is good to know. I typically build them but never thought to test to see if they work.

	18-10-2001 11:52									#6
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Any unit of whatever faction will get the defensive bonus if within range of a sensor. It's the act of defending that gets rewarded, regardless of the location of the sensor (eg. nearer you, in your base, etc)

Also just did some work on bunker/sensor combos. Good if you wait to be attacked, but as soon as you fire out of your bunker the enemy unit get's the sensor's bonus. Bunker/forest combos are better (+50% +50% versus the +50% +25% of the other set) and have no penalties for attacking from the location. But not so good against air attack (mind you the bunker offers no protection against air attack other than preventing stack destruction) whereas you keep the sensor's +25% against air attacks.

	18-10-2001 19:33									#7
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I had thought the criterion was you get the bonus if the sensor is in your Territory (or a pactmate?), same as for who gets to use its sight range. Did your tests cover this?

	18-10-2001 22:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie But I did learn something again that I don't think I knew. A perimeter defense in a sea base is virtually useless. It confers no defensive bonus against attack by a ship (which is the most common way of capturing a sea base) nor agaisnt aircraft or choppers. It's only use is against amphibious-equipped troops disembarking from a transport, and when was the last time you used those to take a sea base?

Tachyon Fields, though, are important, right? I seem to remember the datalinks saying that Perimiter Defenses give "+100% to defense" and Tachyons giving "+100% to defense from all attacks" or something. I didn't think much of it till I discovered (to my great joy) that my airforce could attack the Perimiter-Enhanced Spartan Bases with no penalty. So, I think that implies that Tachyons do prevent against air and naval strikes, though I haven't tested this (not many of my games get to Probability Mechanics, because it's off my early beelines so I don't get it till later, and most games I quit before then because of my obvious advantage).

Z

	18-10-2001 22:23									#9
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That's very very very stange Goog. The criteria is indeed suppossed to be that the sensor must be within your territory for your unit to get the bonus.

"scenario testing"

Have you tested this during a regular game? Was this from within the scenario editor, or were you testing a completed scenario?

I get the strong feeling that this is a scenario editor/scenario game bug. Not a bug for regular games. AFAIK, when I build a base on a sensor, the enemy never gets a bonus to defense, and I know for a fact that I don't get the bonus when I'm in their territory (from much experience trying to gas aliens )

	18-10-2001 23:42									#10
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sensored

	18-10-2001 23:42									#11
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Zak VII:

Indeed you are right. A Tachyon Field gives another 100% defense value where there is an aerospace (versus air attacks), naval yard (versus sea attacks) and perim defense (against land attacks)

Fitz:

Good point. I tested by creating the situation, choosing a side, toggling the SE off, and playing the turn (at least, initiating the combat) to see what was being reported as the odds and respective strengths. Could be just an SE thing, but I doubt it - it's never been wrong before in any of its simulations. Next step, of course, is to take a saved game situation and change sides and see what happens (the AI is fond of building bunkers in adjacent base squares)

G.

	19-10-2001 00:03									#12
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Response to the bunker situation: When you move into another factions bunker you get a message saying that you have captured that particular bunker. Thus making it your own.

Maybe the sensor situation may be similar.

	19-10-2001 00:57									#13
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Ooooh, I HATE that message! How many times have you moved a hovertank into a bunker with its first move? AAAAAAARRRRGHHHH! 'Bunker captured' - yeah, and I could've captured a city instead!

Ugh....

grr grr grr grr grr

	19-10-2001 01:03									#14
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I capture sea bases with amphibious troops all the time (vs. the AI). The AI builds seabases right next to land, most of the time. Drop pods + Amphibious pods = drop on the beach next to the sea base and walk in.

Granted, I usually don't attack the sea base's defenders in this way (I prefer aerial assaults) -- but sometimes it's handy to wipe out an AI's sea former or stranded plane.

	19-10-2001 01:34									#15
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More interesting stuff from scenario testing:

Why put armor on crawlers and formers?

Basic combat, these suffer a -50% combat penalty. Put armor on them and now for combat odds purposes, they are military units. So not only do they get the armor strength, it is effectively doubled 'cos the -50% is re-instated.

So, for energy park builders, always armor the crawlers - even synthmetal does the trick (obviously stronger armor produces harder to kill crawlers/formers)

And consider putting sensors every five tiles (so that no square is more than 2 tiles from a sensor) - this confers the +25% bonus on the armored crawlers as well, even against air attacks (the AI's favorite tactic - learned from Tau Ceti and Misotu in OKF3 - ) - and each attack it survives gives it a morale boost, further strengthening its defense capability.

G.

	19-10-2001 01:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Following your post I opened my test scenario again, and placed a sensor array in the ocean and built a base over it. No effect on defense at all, either air, sea or against amphibious units. Interestingly even a land-based sensor confers no defensive bonuses on units in a sea base.

that's right sea sensors sensor platforms, sonar bouys or whatever do no add any bonus to defence in the base, BUT they do still give you that +2 sighting radius thing which i find really useful. of course sensors only work inside your territory. to bad cause in a recent game as a custom faction from networknode, i didn't have any territory marking line thingys and so no sensors worked . i had sea sensors enabled, but after i got SMAX i never bothered to change that alphax text again.

	19-10-2001 02:10									#17
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Fitz:

Update. In placing the sensor through the SE, the game doesn't know whose it is, even if a base is built on top of it, hence the defense bonus swithcing depending who was attacking and who defending.

But when I ran the scenario five or six turns, and built a sensor, the game recognized ownership (the "friendly" part of the alpha.txt I guess) and only conferred the bonus on the one faction, when defending, and didn't chnange alliegance when i switched sides and attacked from under the sensor.

LOL - I can rest easier now.

G.

	19-10-2001 21:10									#18
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Sensors have some hidden uses too. When another faction builds a sea base near you coastline and you want to get into a fracas with them w/o taking a diplo hit, just send a couple of formers over next to their sea base and build 2 or 3 sensor arrays right next to the base. The AI'll go crazy if you watch it too closely!

- Scipio

	19-10-2001 22:05									#19
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Devious, Scipio - I never thought of that.

It's really annoying when the AI does that - and Sven is an awful offender. Short of Vendetta and taking out the base there's not much one can do.

(And I'm constantly tinkering with my base squares to ensure that I'm blocking his using of any ones that I've developed - but then the mindworms land, you lose that square for a turn while you deal with that threat and voila, he's now got a worker on your developed square)

That's when I usually go to war, but of course any pactmates he has will usually join in. I'll try your tactic next time.

Googlie

	20-10-2001 17:08									#20
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I hate hate HATE when other factions found seabases right next to your land. However, I have found quite a useful way of stopping them.

In one of my most recent SP games I found both Domai and Lal persistently founding seabases next to the Monsoon Jungle. My response was neither to ignore them nor to declare Vendetta and take the bases out.

Instead I kept a stock of three IoDs in each of my two closest bases. Whenever Lal or Domai founded their bases, they began at size 1, completely undefended. I simply moved an IoD over right next to the base and released it into the wild! Next turn, IoD attacks, base is destroyed and IoD disappears without a trace! Easy!

	20-10-2001 18:36									#21
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Good one S-F. That hadn't occurred to me either (not been a big builder of IoD's but I may have to rethink that !!)

G.

	26-10-2001 19:59									#22
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I've used the IoD or mindworm release program as a method of keeping AI Pactmates in line. Too often they will roll colony pods into an area I'm planning on developing (land) or a seapod too close to my own shores (where they will steal my terraforming and starve out my bases). Threats to make them surrender the base to me don't always work (uppity schlubs!), so I frequently left with no other recourse.

If they build a seabase up against a landmass you desire, don't worry. Just drop a colony pod onto the landmass, build a base of your own, and watch their seabase's production collapse for want of minerals.

	26-10-2001 21:49									#23
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i love the IoD idea. how do you "release it into the wild?" i've never done that before. is it an option when you right-click, or is there a trick to it?

brilliant idea! simply brilliant.

	26-10-2001 21:59									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Earwicker I've used the IoD or mindworm release program as a method of keeping AI Pactmates in line. Too often they will roll colony pods into an area I'm planning on developing (land) or a seapod too close to my own shores (where they will steal my terraforming and starve out my bases). Threats to make them surrender the base to me don't always work (uppity schlubs!), so I frequently left with no other recourse.

Do you release a MW/IoD by moving it into opposition territory and 'transfering control' from the Actions menu, like a regular unit transfer?

quote: If they build a seabase up against a landmass you desire, don't worry. Just drop a colony pod onto the landmass, build a base of your own, and watch their seabase's production collapse for want of minerals.

Yep. Done that too. Only problem is the competition for resources cuts both ways, since i normally terraform the ocean shelf tiles near my coastal bases.

- Scipio

	26-10-2001 22:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Bella Hella i love the IoD idea. how do you "release it into the wild?" i've never done that before. is it an option when you right-click, or is there a trick to it? brilliant idea! simply brilliant.

Simply move the IoD to wherever you want to release it, hold down Ctrl and Shift and press U. When the dialogue box pops up, simply select the 'release mind worms into wild' option.

Don't know if it works on Vanilla SMAC, but I know for certain that it works on SMAX. I reckon I've 'destroyed' about seven bases per game with this tactic.