18-10-2001 13:17									#1
	Oh No, No Spies? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Greeved with terror I just learned THEY took away my spies?

One of the finest units in tha game. I liked them.
Why, oh why?

Now how to play the dirty tricks? Now how to focus on military strenght and right after starting a war steal al remaining techs?

Now how to blow up citywalls to easly capture cities and rush through enemy areas?

Oh, how dark future can be...

Sigh..., Guess I'll have to learn some other strategies.

But the question remains, what was wrong with them (them spies I mean)?

	18-10-2001 13:23									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh God, not again one of these posts!

	18-10-2001 14:07									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There are still spies. They just don't have a tactical location (as it should be). I have a feeling it'll work similar to the way it did in MOO2, meaning you'll have an "espionage screen" and will be able to assign your intelligence community to various tasks. I do hope, however, that it's more effective or at least intuitive than in MOO2. I never could get my spies to work properly in that game.

	18-10-2001 14:14									#4
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Wexu Oh God, not again one of these posts!

Hey thanx, but you may call me Tuckson, OK?

quote: Originally posted by Ironwood There are still spies. They just don't have a tactical location (as it should be). I have a feeling it'll work similar to the way it did in MOO2, meaning you'll have an "espionage screen" and will be able to assign your intelligence community to various tasks. I do hope, however, that it's more effective or at least intuitive than in MOO2. I never could get my spies to work properly in that game.

No there are not. Mike Breitkreutz explaned, have a look at the Apolyton newsitem form 17 oct. about espionage. Small quote:

quote: Diplomats and spies are indeed gone but you can still perform espionage missions.

I'm curious and anxious at the same time.
Hmmm... but we're OK now.

	18-10-2001 14:56									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I am also a little perturbed by the fact that spies will not feature to the degree that they did in Civ2. I found them a valuable source when all the other nations started ganging up against you.

They were a lot better than the spies in CTP1/2!

	18-10-2001 15:16									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

There is an espionage screen for doing all the things spies do. So the spy unit is no longer on the board but spies are still a part of your empires resources. Whether you fund espionage as a % of your income or build spy units which only sit on the espionage screen I don't know. Both styles have been used successfully in the past. This is a good answer to the previous problems of one-man units blocking roads and needing military units to kill which has always been absurd. You should never have been able to block routes with diplomats and spies, forcing the opponent to jump through hoops just to move through their own country.

	18-10-2001 15:32									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

MOO2 system was actually fine, I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

	18-10-2001 15:32									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso MOO2 system was actually fine, I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

I agree!

	18-10-2001 15:46									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso ...I like it more than pushing them around the map.....

One reason why I like it more is it adds to the sense of 'secrecy' to espionage activities. No units on the map means "where are those damnable infiltrators now?".

I loik it lot

I just hope the new system isn't over simplified.

	18-10-2001 15:55									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold There is an espionage screen for doing all the things spies do. So the spy unit is no longer on the board but spies are still a part of your empires resources. Whether you fund espionage as a % of your income or build spy units which only sit on the espionage screen I don't know. Both styles have been used successfully in the past. This is a good answer to the previous problems of one-man units blocking roads and needing military units to kill which has always been absurd. You should never have been able to block routes with diplomats and spies, forcing the opponent to jump through hoops just to move through their own country.

Hmmm... Haven't thought on this. Sounds indeed like a valid reason to change the concept.

However, with the concept of borders, it shouldn't be too hard to make it so that a spy unit can mnve freely within your own borders. It doesn't make sense for any unit to be blocked within your borders anyway.

Red alert had a nice feature for spies. They looked like enemy soldiers.

That's also a cool approach.

	18-10-2001 16:01									#11
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by tuckson However, with the concept of borders, it shouldn't be too hard to make it so that a spy unit can mnve freely within your own borders. It doesn't make sense for any unit to be blocked within your borders anyway.

That would help, but should an enemy tank division have to expend a combat action to kill a spy just because it was invading your country? If spies were cheaper than infantry divisions you can bet some multiplayer games would see walls of them as a cheap way of delaying the enemy.

I like special units (unlike many detractors of CtP) but their inability to share territory with enemy units was their worst drawback.

	18-10-2001 16:14									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

To the enemy they could be shown as workers or settlers as long as they'ld be inside their native borders. The enemy would never know it's a spy.

	18-10-2001 16:29									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmm, there were positive and negative sides about spies.

Just wonder how it will going to be. Well, we'll wait and see.

	18-10-2001 19:43									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

If you thought that was bad, try playing SMAC with APTs (armored probe teams). Cheap units that could cause any enemy a lot of grief.

I applaud the move to an espionage screen.