19-10-2001 05:50									#1
	Gamespot says: "Just about the only disappointing thing about Civilization III is...&qu Put an end to popups!

quote: Just about the only disappointing thing about Civilization III is multiplayer capability, which is not included at all. Alpha Cenaturi had play-by-email capability retrofitted in a subsequent patch, but Civilization III does not have multiplayer mode in any form--it's a strictly solo game. It follows the tradition of the first two games--also solo only--which is immensely disappointing.

http://gamespot.com/gamespot/storie...18446-4,00.html

Well. Start counting the negative paragraphs relating to lack of MP. Many of you don't care about MP...but it seems a few reviewers might.

	19-10-2001 05:54									#2
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Well the MP players can start counting. Too bad that they just can't tolerate the idea that deadlines sometimes can't be met.

	19-10-2001 05:56									#3
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And too bad the reviews will suffer for it, eh?

	19-10-2001 05:57									#4
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IMHO, if that's the only disappointment, were in good shape.

	19-10-2001 05:59									#5
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Well, we are in the 'fluff' preview stage, so my much bigger concern...AI...has not had time enough to be reviewed. Still, I find it interesting that the negative mentions of a lack of MP are already in gear.

	19-10-2001 06:03									#6
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Well, we are in the 'fluff' preview stage, so my much bigger concern...AI...has not had time enough to be reviewed. Still, I find it interesting that the negative mentions of a lack of MP are already in gear.

I have to agree with you here.. the AI is my biggest concern.. CivII wasn't horrible for it's time, but I believe CivIII should be greatly improved on this. I like the fact that no one at Firaxis can beat the game on Deity, but then of course their going to praise their own product.

It's actually shocking Gamespot said anything negative about the game seeing as Infogrames seems to have made them the exception to the rule of no reviews before Oct. 22nd.

	19-10-2001 06:14									#7
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Why do you do this yin?

While you're counting the negative paragraphs about MP, I think you should also count all the paragraphs about all the new and better things. It's only fair.

	19-10-2001 06:19									#8
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i don't think mp is that important.

i think civ was always meant as a solitary game

	19-10-2001 06:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Why do you do this yin?

I can't say why he does it, but let me tell you something, this was not a review. It was a preview. There are few games that GameSpot and the rest won't at least give some glory to in a preview. I have read that Pizza Tycoon will be a great game in one preview.

The fact that MP is being mentioned in a glorified preview, does seem to indicate what direction the reviews are going to take. The game will take a hit for it, probably hurting ratings and sales.

quote: While you're counting the negative paragraphs about MP, I think you should also count all the paragraphs about all the new and better things. It's only fair.

I would assume one of the optomists will take care of that for yin. In fact I am suprised you didn't yourself and you call yourself a ACS poster...

	19-10-2001 06:25									#10
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quote: Why do you do this yin?

You mean point out "just about the only disappointing thing about Civ3" according to Gamespot (so far anyway)? Because it's quite interesting.

I would also argue that you are taking this in the wrong light:

1) While I most certainly AM highlighting the fact that lack of MP will bring what should have been avoided negative criticism,

2) The fact that there are no other glaring negative comments made so far (like: The game won't even install correctly) should give you non-MP guys some good news.

	19-10-2001 06:27									#11
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If the only disappointing thing so far is lack of MP, thats fine by me. I doubt this will bring down review scores too much.

	19-10-2001 06:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by tniem I can't say why he does it, but let me tell you something, this was not a review. It was a preview. There are few games that GameSpot and the rest won't at least give some glory to in a preview. I have read that Pizza Tycoon will be a great game in one preview. The fact that MP is being mentioned in a glorified preview, does seem to indicate what direction the reviews are going to take. The game will take a hit for it, probably hurting ratings and sales. I would assume one of the optomists will take care of that for yin. In fact I am suprised you didn't yourself and you call yourself a ACS poster...

I still think that the MP population is much smaller than the SP population. I also don't think that all those who play MP will not buy the game because it doesn't come with MP. Look at all other titles with "Sid Meier's..." on the top of them. I trust this will be a good game, and the millions of other consumers out there do too.

I don't have that much time on my hands, Tniem. What is an ACS poster?

Yes, it sucks that MP is out for now, but everything else is most certainly in.

	19-10-2001 06:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 You mean point out "just about the only disappointing thing about Civ3" according to Gamespot (so far anyway)? Because it's quite interesting. I would also argue that you are taking this in the wrong light: 1) While I most certainly AM highlighting the fact that lack of MP will bring what should have been avoided negative criticism, 2) The fact that there are no other glaring negative comments made so far (like: The game won't even install correctly) should give you non-MP guys some good news.

Okay, sorry Yin, I overreacted. Yes, we all want MP, and I hope Firaxis gives it to us shortly (and good (and without extra money paying)).

	19-10-2001 06:51									#14
	Re: Gamespot says: "Just about the only disappointing thing about Civilization III is...&am Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Well. Start counting the negative paragraphs relating to lack of MP. Many of you don't care about MP...but it seems a few reviewers might.

Talk about obvious. Of course this will be negative if a reviewer or a player cares about MP.

An SP only will look at it and say, that's the only negative, wow, that's great!

And Yin just won't stop complaining. It never stops. It's like death and taxes.

So therefore, *plonk*.

	19-10-2001 06:58									#15
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I agree with the above thread, pointing out that it was prefaced by "Just about the only disappointing thing...".

I can't place it right now, but a while back there was some game I was immensely satisfied with, and the reviewer (CGW probably) wrote the exact same thing. It was at the close of the review. After reading two pages of "kudos" about the game, the comment on MP did not hit the reader like a ton of bricks. In this case, it came across more as the reviewer trying to demonstrate that they were being objective and comprehensive in their evaluation.

In the context of a review the severity of an MP comment will depend on whether it follows something like "And not only does the AI disappoint, but the game has no MP to make up for it."

As to this thread, it may look to some as a negative post since it is the lead off statement in the first post. IMO the point of the post was to point out that reviewers do care about MP (as some had predicted).

	19-10-2001 07:01									#16
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Multi-player will appear someday.

I look at it like this: By the time it comes out I will know the game well enough to kick the snot out of some friend I just introduced the game to. That will help balance out all the beatings I will take at the hands of experieced palyers like the lot of you all.

It's a gentle balance for the ego

	19-10-2001 07:11									#17
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The only reason Multiplayer is seen as so "crucial" to a game is because the gaming press and a very small and extremely vocal online community have convin.........

Oh..... wait, this thread is about MP isn't it? Damn, I swore I'd stay away from those.

Sorry, go about your pissing.

	19-10-2001 07:53									#18
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quote: IMO the point of the post was to point out that reviewers do care about MP (as some had predicted).

Precisely. As a number of the non-MP pissers around us hinted or claimed that MP was no big deal and hardly anybody would miss it, I felt it interesting to point out that 'about the only disappointing thing' being said at this early point is about MP.

'Vocal minority?' Hmmm, convenient to say that, I suppose.

	19-10-2001 09:21									#19
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I agree with yin, I'd like to hear about the AI's capabilities. Maybe in tomorows 3rd and final day of Gamespots civ3 preview there'll be some info on it. Like I've said before, as long as the AI knows how to kick my arse with a huge army attacking from multiple points, I'll be happy.

	19-10-2001 09:23									#20
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quote: as long as the AI knows how to kick my arse with a huge army attacking from multiple points, I'll be happy.

Yes, that would be the Holy Grail. Let's wait and see.

	19-10-2001 09:24									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Zanzin I agree with yin, I'd like to hear about the AI's capabilities. Maybe in tomorows 3rd and final day of Gamespots civ3 preview there'll be some info on it. Like I've said before, as long as the AI knows how to kick my arse with a huge army attacking from multiple points, I'll be happy.

Yah, that's what I'm hoping for the most. A good AI. Hopefully, they'll talk about it but who knows how much they can know considering when they got the game... Does anyone know when they got the game?

	19-10-2001 09:28									#22
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only a few days ago I guess

	19-10-2001 09:35									#23
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My breath stopped when I read "the only negative thing..." but then I breathed a sigh of relief when they only mentioned multiplayer.

That is because like many gamers (enough that will buy Civ3 to make it profitable), I don't care about multiplayer.

I just hope the AI is good.

	19-10-2001 10:21									#24
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I'm one of those who's really going to have a hard time resisting buying this game right off the bat, but at the same time I'm almost certain I'll be disappointed. Pretty stupid, hah?

I have this very strong feeling that after Civ3's been out for a little while, what we're going to be hearing is "Just about the only disappointing thing about Civ3 is that there is no multiplayer, the AI sucks and there's no way to improve the AI either - otherwise, it's a great game." Now wouldn't that be great?

I really don't believe the AI is going to be very good and with no MP and no way to improve the AI, how long can anyone possibly have fun with it? Well, apparently for quite some time, considering how long some have been playing Civ2. That just amazes me. I guess that's what Firaxis is counting on - many people apparently don't need a good AI opponent to have fun and don't care about MP.

BTW, I'm not uninformed about AI programming, and that's why I'm pessimistic about the AI. I've been studying AI programming and I've written large AI scripts for both AOK and Sub Titans and I can tell you that it's extremely difficult to make a good AI for a game that's fairly complex, and this game is not just fairly complex, it's VERY complex. IMHO, they really blew it by not allowing us to be able to modify the AI. For at least some of us, the AI won't be much challenge for more than a game or two. Of that I'm nearly certain. I just hope I can find the strength to resist the temptation to buy this game.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. The fact that no one at Firaxis has beaten it at the deity level tells us nothing much about the AI, except that it probably cheats like mad at that level. I'll bet that on Prince where there's no cheating (I think?), it'll prove to be quite easy after a game or two. And how fun will it be knowing that the only reason the AI is challenging you is because it's cheating like crazy? That's not my idea of fun.

Last edited by old timer on 19-10-2001 at 10:29

	19-10-2001 11:02									#25
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quote: I really don't believe the AI is going to be very good and with no MP and no way to improve the AI, how long can anyone possibly have fun with it?

If your belief that the AI will not be very good, I think many people will still enjoy the game, considering the fact that many people were able to suffice with Civ1&2 for quite awhile before their respective MPs came out.

quote: As to this thread, it may look to some as a negative post since it is the lead off statement in the first post.

No, the reason why this thread is taken as negative is because misinterpretation. This misinterpretation comes from the fact that Yin posted this. As many feel that Yin is 'Lord Pessimist'. Jumping to conclusions come from people who are so blind to see the other side of the spectrum. It's really just a matter of people needing to realize the whole picture and not stay so in tuned with their opinions/feelings that they shut out others' opinions/feelings. Even if this was a critical thread towards Civ3 it would still be compliant with my enjoyment. For that there needs to some criticism, otherwise this forum would turn into a Mr. Rogers atmosphere.

IMHO, the AI will be competent, but not as intelligent as one would dream for. Which in all reality is all you can ask for, as Old Timer pointed out that AI programming is not an easy task. My outlook for the Civ3 AI is that it will be much improved upon the Civ2 AI, but how much improvement it will have over the SMAC AI is up in the air, so to speak.

	19-10-2001 11:39									#26
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actually, what this shows is that the gamespot people havent spent the amount of time needed to find any actual problems

i would be surprised if they have played more than two full games

given that, and given that of course firaxis has done a carefull job (as always) it's hard to find something to write in the "cons column".

so, in order to appear as "fair", what's left for the previewer? lack of multiplayer


if i was undecided on whether to buy civ3, i would rather wait for the comments from players on the first month(and not just the first two weeks) and then decide

	19-10-2001 11:51									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG ..if i was undecided on whether to buy civ3, i would rather wait for the comments from players on the first month(and not just the first two weeks) and then decide

Unfortunately, a lot of casual gamers don't wait around for peachy reviews and player comments after they have given their first look into a game. And, especially at this time of year where the market is Noah's Ark flooded with products to choose from, a potential buyer might be carried away from CivIII by, what in their eyes, is a better game.

Also, a lot of casual strategy gamers are into online play, due mostly to the RTS multiplayer trends these days. So something like "No MP in CivIII" might just turn some prospective CIV noobs away.

I wish Gamespot had said that "Firaxogrames is working on MP, and it should be available in early 2002".

[Firaxis is working on MP, right? ]

	19-10-2001 12:13									#28
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I would like to ask all the sp players out there a question. Do you guys ever get tried of playing the computer? I know I do. Once I figure out how to beat the AI I move on to mp. Something that really gets me mad is how it seems that all you sp only players are hostile to mp players. You think when we complain about no mp in Civ III that we have really nothing to complain about. How would you feel if there was no sp and only mp? Really the only complaint I have with Civ III is the lack of mp, everything else I am happy with. I also think that there is more than half of all who play Civ play mp sometime.

	19-10-2001 12:24									#29
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I would like to ask all the sp players out there a question. Do you guys ever get tried of playing the computer? I know I do. Once I figure out how to beat the AI I move on to mp. Something that really gets me mad is how it seems that all you sp only players are hostile to mp players. You think when we complain about no mp in Civ III that we have really nothing to complain about. How would you feel if there was no sp and only mp? Really the only complaint I have with Civ III is the lack of mp, everything else I am happy with. I also think that there is more than half of all who play Civ play mp sometime.

	19-10-2001 13:12									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG actually, what this shows is that the gamespot people havent spent the amount of time needed to find any actual problems if i was undecided on whether to buy civ3, i would rather wait for the comments from players on the first month(and not just the first two weeks) and then decide

MarkG, I really appreciate your well "balanced" post. It should (but probably without any chance of success) moderate some posters.

I like you stepped in to explain (from some first hand experience) to many of us of things works in preview world.

About AI, I must confess I usually try to avoid to spoil AI weak points: it remove my suspension of disbelieve, the "game immersion".
Sometime I do, of course, because the AI in games not so "restricted" in scope, boards, alternative moves as Chess, Reversi, Backgammon, simply can't cope with the task.

The only way for it is cheating, but if developers abuse of cheating that is frustrating for gamers. Multiplayer was introduced also as a simple workaround to AI limits: put human brains to both side of the game board and you have no more limits. (At least not for programmers fault ).

Now Firaxis is in a Catch22: IF the AI will be sub-par they can't rely on MP to manage the lack of interest for the game!

The AI developers have really an hard task, don't have?