19-10-2001 21:38									#1
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Propaganda (attempts to convince an enemy city to join your Civilization)

This meens that you can have a city join you and you do not have to be near it

This is so cool!

	19-10-2001 21:55									#2
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i think it does help if your civ is close to the city you're trying to get, and a higerh culture is also in your favor.

do you have a link or something to that stuff about propagnda
i read this a while ago somewhere but can't remember where ?

	19-10-2001 21:56									#3
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"This is so cool!"

it is?

	19-10-2001 21:59									#4
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I can just see it in front of my ears... I am Ab Lincoln and the world cheers as I say, "there is no land like America. Don't delay, revolt today, and the land of the free is yours. Oh, and by the way, our taxes are lower."

	19-10-2001 22:02									#5
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quote: Originally posted by drake "This is so cool!" it is?

Why wouldn't it be cool! The new espionage system is gonna be great. And you call yourself a civer (umm, do you? (I mean you're a king on Apolyton...))

	19-10-2001 22:07									#6
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Does anyone know whether a civilization can be split into civil war?

	19-10-2001 22:12									#7
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absorbing civs through culture just sounds quite dull. Maybe it is just my style of play, but it doesnt sound very exciting. Its like bribing cities in civ2. Don't see how anyone could consider a game run by spies and diplomats exciting.

Yes, hardcore civ fan. And post count hasnt a thing to do with how big a civ fan one is

The highest posters at apolyton don't even play civ. (most of em')

I will wait to see how it really works and then judge it...but it just sounds boring to me.......

	19-10-2001 22:13									#8
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step one: find one city
step two: steal map
step three: use Propaganda
step four: laugh

Bow before the PeaceMongers

	19-10-2001 22:17									#9
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forcing ones culture on another isnt exactly what I would call peaceful

	19-10-2001 22:22									#10
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I find your post funny Drake, because my play style is probably exactly the opposite of yours. I used to try and play other CIV games in a diplomatic style, and of course, I would always be drawn into wars I never started. It's going to be a nice change to be able to conduct diplomatic affairs rather than having to resort to war all of the time.

I'm glad that Firaxis gives us a choice to either be a warmonger or a diplomat.

	19-10-2001 22:24									#11
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this solves the problem of lesser civs so
you can consentrate on your equals (if there are any)
if there are no equals then I will not bloody my troops
on lesser thing that I would raise if I had to use force.

	19-10-2001 22:29									#12
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quote: Originally posted by drake Don't see how anyone could consider a game run by spies and diplomats exciting.

I guess the cold war is not your favourite period in history

	19-10-2001 22:31									#13
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quote: I find your post funny Drake, because my play style is probably exactly the opposite of yours. I used to try and play other CIV games in a diplomatic style, and of course, I would always be drawn into wars I never started. It's going to be a nice change to be able to conduct diplomatic affairs rather than having to resort to war all of the time. I'm glad that Firaxis gives us a choice to either be a warmonger or a diplomat.

Diplomacy with ai? I will believe it when i see it
One supposedly had that choice in civ2 as well.......

Actually, I'm a very diplomatic player. I enjoy conversating with other leaders and having real discussions about wordly events and issues. I like having opponents who do not kill blindly. Most games I only use force when the underdog players are getting bullied. Outright aggression is something I do not condone.

And however you want to look at it, absorbing other cities for the better of your empire, through war, bribery or culture is naked agression. It just has different faces

	19-10-2001 22:32									#14
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quote: I guess the cold war is not your favourite period in history

Nope, it sure isnt

	19-10-2001 22:45									#15
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Did Firaxian rename "incite a revolt" to "propaganda"?

	19-10-2001 22:47									#16
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Sounds like the same idea.......but on a much more complex level I think.

	19-10-2001 22:48									#17
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In CIV III, I WILL condone aggression by any means.

	19-10-2001 22:49									#18
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Well Jason, i hope once they install the mp, that you can try it against someone like me

	19-10-2001 22:53									#19
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quote: Originally posted by drake Diplomacy with ai? I will believe it when i see it One supposedly had that choice in civ2 as well....... Actually, I'm a very diplomatic player. I enjoy conversating with other leaders and having real discussions about wordly events and issues. I like having opponents who do not kill blindly. Most games I only use force when the underdog players are getting bullied. Outright aggression is something I do not condone. And however you want to look at it, absorbing other cities for the better of your empire, through war, bribery or culture is naked agression. It just has different faces

No, taking over cities through way of culture is not the same as agression. I explained this is another thread. When your culture is high, your people are enlightened, intelligent, artistic. Others will admire you for this and strive to be like you... willingly. It is not like Borg assimilation. People choose to join your civilization.

Propaganda is similar to cultural assimilation except that I am willing to bet your spies bend the truth a little

	19-10-2001 22:58									#20
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Yeah but lor, the end result is the same

Your opponent loses out because you've made their people switch teams....I'd say if someone did it to me, I'd be ready to give them a good ass kicking. First, kill the traitors, then kill the enlightened ones

	19-10-2001 23:05									#21
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It's about game emersion, Drake. If you wanna think of cultural assimilation as the same as conquest, in my opinion that's your loss.

And there are different ways to go about taking the city. Military conquest involves troops and planes, cultural assimilation requries libraries and temples. It is a different strategy.

Yes, if I lost a city because it was absorbed then when i retook the city (and I would retake it) I would raze it.

	20-10-2001 00:35									#22
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I didnt say it wasnt a different strategy, I said, its the same result. Its an aggressive move to obtain more cities (conquest).

What do you mean by game emersion anyway? Using my imagination? I would find it hard to believe, even in my imagination that people loyal to a certain civ would be swayed to another because they have better goodies

If that was the case, why dont nations such as afghanistan (for instance) just be absorbed by another larger neighbor (like Pakistan)?

The culutural absorption neglects the fact that people are loyal to their countries regardless of technology level and wealth.

	20-10-2001 00:47									#23
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quote: Originally posted by cyril25376 Did Firaxian rename "incite a revolt" to "propaganda"?

Nope.

	20-10-2001 00:51									#24
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Drake is correct - assimiliation of a neighboring city of a nation would be regarded most likely as an act of war.

Examine either current or historical examples, such as Kashmir. Kashmir is part of India but culturally more like Pakistan, and you see the consequences. The Sudetenland was "willingly occupied" by the German residents there, but you see the true effect.

If a city is not in revolt and is part of a "progressive" government, i.e. Democracy, this defection should be extremely rare, especially if the city has a reasonable infrastructure.

I also agree with Drake on the ridiculous nature of spies and of government subversion - I have changed the rules in Civ2 to not allow player subversion, lowered movement by one, removed ZOC bypass, and changed most modern units to unbribeable. This makes spys much more balanced in play.

Mi dos centavos...

Venger

	20-10-2001 00:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Drake: Well Jason, i hope once they install the mp, that you can try it against someone like me

Drake... you'd feel my rath...

…out from the shadow of the valley of death, I will descend upon you like plague, pestilence and disease…
…and I will impose my will upon you with an iron fist, and with ruthlessness as cold as steel…

I WILL RULE THE WORLD!!! HAHAHHAHAHA!!!

In Civilization of course.

God... we need multiplayer huh?

	20-10-2001 01:03									#26
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Yeah we do jason

One cannot test their skill through high score.....Skill can only be tested in a head to head competition.

	20-10-2001 01:24									#27
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Up until the age of nationalism (last 250 years), cities changed nation-state loyalty all the time at the margin of the empires. Look at Alsace-Lorraine and its cities going back and forth (Burgundy, France, HRE, Germany), German cities federating with one and then another, Asian cities being in , then out of the control of China. Similarly, a significant number of the residents of Afghanistan believe that the Taliban ARE agents of Pakistan (where most of them were educated). Jammu and Kashmir contain peoples of mixed loyalties, that is why the problem continues. And, the US is infamous for overriding traditional cultural principles in cities throughout and substituting materialistic ones in the name of free trade. So, in fact, this does go on all the time, and was quite blatant for 5700 of the 6000 years shown in the game. Additional modern examples include Trieste and Hong Kong, where treaties undid what the peoples will had desired.

	20-10-2001 01:27									#28
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It's the unloyal citizens that are swayed Drake. Dan said there are a number of different factors that are calculated when determining if a city is absorbed. I'm sure unhappiness and similar CSA's are two of those factors. I bet government affects cultural assimilation, too. Cities will probably not wanna hang onto some oppressive Despot.

Let's look at an example. Say you're in a really crappy city with no infrastructure, no banks, no stock exchanges, and your a commercial civ. Just outside your border is a larger, happier city with many banks and stock exchanges. Are you gonna stay with your civ and be loyal for the sake of being loyal, or are you going to join the obviously better civilization outside your borders?

I also didn't say that the civ whose city defected would be happy about it. I'm willling to bet they would go to war to take back their civ. And the the peope of Sudetenland my have been treated bad by those they thought woud help them, but that the German's fault, not the defector's (though it shows poor foresight on their part)

	20-10-2001 13:49									#29
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The propaganda concept is probably
quite important if you want to win by cultural
domination. Unless your nation has built lots of
cultural buildings, and especially at an early stage.

BTW, is Jason that sadistic?

But anyway; he's right...

We need MP!
We cannot live without it!

But that's OT.

	20-10-2001 13:57									#30
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quote: Originally posted by drake forcing ones culture on another isnt exactly what I would call peaceful

Well, I wouldn't say it is 'forced', but rather, and open invitation to a better way of life.

Of course, this might have been more realistically simulated by immigration instead of absorption of cities.