19-10-2001 22:32									#1
	The Editor and Comments Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.civ3.com/devupdate.cfm

Ok, so this is the editor... VERY BEEFY INDEED!!!
This thread will be dedicated to deciphering it's implications...

(Ps I tried to post the screenshot, but I could only do a link, so if any of you savvy dudes could do this, please do so).

	19-10-2001 22:38									#2
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The first questions I have:

1) What is the WEALTH/ shield cost per gold?
2) The chance of rioting? Will there be random rioting?
3) Forst value in shields?
4) Default Money resource?
5) Default captured units?

This is gonna be fantastic... so... many... buttons....

	19-10-2001 23:14									#3
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This definetely is awesome! Too bad we can't see the other 15 screens that make up the Editor. It says movement rate along road = 3 I wonder is this is a constant rate, or the same like in civ 3, triple move.

And Stealth planes are really stealthy! 5% intercept chance as compared to 50%

I'm also wondering exactly what some of the defensive bonues mean? Does this mean citizens help when there is a siege? and buildings can act as makeshift fortifications?

Also... Jeff said you edit WONDERS... awesome! I wonder (pun intended ) how much control you have over wonder editing/creation

	19-10-2001 23:15									#4
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Just some guesses - but they make sense to me

>1) What is the WEALTH/ shield cost per gold?

Most likely The number of shields it takes to make one gold when building wealth (Capitalization)

>2) The chance of rioting? Will there be random rioting?

Most likely the chance of rioting when the a city is unhappy.

>3) Forst value in shields?

Perhaps we will be able to clear-cut forests for quick shield boost.

>4) Default Money resource?

Natural resource that gives wealth?

>5) Default captured units?

When you capture an enemy unit (with 0 def value) what kind of unit do you get.

	19-10-2001 23:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by lorien >5) Default captured units? When you capture an enemy unit (with 0 def value) what kind of unit do you get.

So, captured Great Leaders are reduced to workers in captivity? Cool.

"Yes, monsieur Napoleon, I'm certain you were quite important in your homeland, but you're my bitch now. Quit complaining and pick those potatos or I'll give you a damn good thrashing!"

	19-10-2001 23:58									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What I really like is the "Artificial Intelligence Default Difficulty Level!"
(Right column, next to bottom)

	20-10-2001 00:24									#7
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There are lots of interesting little rules we can deduce from looking just at this one screenshot. I like how you apparently get a one time shield bonus when cutting down a forest, for instance. Also, cities naturally having a greater defense the larger they get.

However, some disturbing stuff as well. For instance, where's the space to set railroad movement? Since there is none, does that mean the dreaded unlimited rail movement is back? At the very least there should be another box for railroad movement, and if zero is selected that would mean infinite.

(Mentally starting my wishlist )

Also, its neat that I can set the barbarian type, but what if I want more than 2 land barbarian types or 1 naval barbarian type? Civ2 had lots more barbarian variety than that.

Or what if I want more than 3 city size levels? With the CTP games that was something one could easily do.

	20-10-2001 00:31									#8
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I think there are a few extra nifty tools (I hope we can change more then simply the names of improvments and wonders (how about setting special effects for advacnes, instead of having them tied to slots?) ), but I'm still kind disappoointed that even a simple FW-esque event system wasn't added. If only there was some way of letting the designer push the plot along....

	20-10-2001 00:49									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe What I really like is the "Artificial Intelligence Default Difficulty Level!"

That's my favourite too. It's a handsome one for
scenario making.

	20-10-2001 01:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael It says movement rate along road = 3 I wonder is this is a constant rate, or the same like in civ 3, triple move.

It obviously means that the unit movement-rate is multiplied with 3 (or whatever you choose) along roads - just like it meant in Civ-1, Civ-2 & SMAC. Dont invent confusion if there isnt any to begin with.

More interesting (and less obvious) is if railroads still give your land-units unlimited moves. I sure dont hope so. A fixed RR move-radius, regardless land unit-type and without any attack/defence detrition, would be much better & more challenging. Sadly, the lack of RR-move inputs in that editor, seems to suggest that those old unbalanced "infinite RR-moves" are still in the game. One keep ones fingers crossed though.

	20-10-2001 02:05									#11
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I have to say that despite the lack of a scripting language [insert bitching here ], the number of rules and flags that you can edit is far superior ro Civ2, and revives my hopes for a decent modding/customizing/scenario situation

	20-10-2001 02:37									#12
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IW,

Check out my theory in the Official Site Update thread.

	20-10-2001 02:42									#13
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quote: Originally posted by lorien >3) Forst value in shields? Perhaps we will be able to clear-cut forests for quick shield boost.

I do hope so. That would bring the game closer to Colonization where you got 20 lumber for clearing a forest in the city radius. And that was a great game with lots of cool features.

Regarding the roads I'm quite sure they will be the same way as in Civ 3 (and in Civ, and Civ 2 as well)

	20-10-2001 02:56									#14
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Everyone's making fun of me because I made a dumb comment about roads...

Anyway, the forest cutting down thingy begs the question, why keep forests at all? Why not cut them all down? I hope the answer to this question is because it affects pollution and global warming :fingers crossed:

	20-10-2001 05:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael ... Anyway, the forest cutting down thingy begs the question, why keep forests at all? Why not cut them all down? ...

Forests are probably probably worth extra shield production ala Civ2. And take a Worker time to clear (unless they work with the speed of a fast Civ2 Engineer at some point in the game).

Post 100!

	20-10-2001 05:12									#16
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I think the editor looks great, my only concern is when MP comes out (hey my pet pig just started flying) how will we know that we are all on a level playing field?

	20-10-2001 05:39									#17
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quote: More interesting (and less obvious) is if railroads still give your land-units unlimited moves. I sure dont hope so.

Hey don't forget that you can't use opponent's rails like in Civ2. The infinite move bonus was broken because you could rush into enemy territory (if they also had rails) and attack without fear of leaving units vulnerable.

I do agree though. I remember they had to write code that kept the AI civs (and automated settlers *gasp*) from moving in circles forever. I think a 1/10 movement rate would have been fine.

	20-10-2001 06:07									#18
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I hope there are many a choice for AI levels...

	20-10-2001 13:47									#19
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Check out the Defensive bonuses in that game-editor screenshot:

Town.............. 0
City............... 50
Metropolis... 100
Fortress......... 50
River.............. 25
Fortifications.. 25
Citizen............. 4
Building........... 4


How should the two latter alternatives (citizen & building) be interpreted? Does 10 pops in a city mean 10 x 4% = 40% increased defence-bonus? Together with 10 city-improvements in that city; likewise 40% added = grand total of 80% defence-bonus?

How does this correspond with the city/metropolis inputs? And where is the citywall-multiplier, and how does the other city defence-buildings come into play?

	20-10-2001 13:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat I have to say that despite the lack of a scripting language

I can understand your opinion; but it's hard to make
every civer happy.

	20-10-2001 13:55									#21
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Almost brings a tear to my eyes. Nice work on this one, Firaxis! Can't wait to see what the Civ Construction Set guys will do with this one (Ralf: ).

	20-10-2001 13:56									#22
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By the way, if that image is breaking people's browsers, I can take it out.

	20-10-2001 14:08									#23
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Well, I don't see any options for rail and river movement, so rails must still give infinite movement ( ) and rivers probably don't add to movement, unless the road number applies to rivers.

Also- I too wonder what the citizien and improvements defense stats are for..? Maybe they have something to do with bombardment? And it looks like ICS has another con if big cities get bigger bonuses to defense.

Shield cost per gold= 8? seems a little steep to me, but this may not be the game default.

Forest value in shields= 10 Very Alpha Centauri indeed!

Geezuz! The scenario creators are going to have a field day with this editor!!

	20-10-2001 14:18									#24
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Its sure looks impressive!

quote: Originally posted by Firaxis/dev-update This editor not only allows you to alter game elements such as advances, civilizations, units and wonders (to name a few), but also includes a robust map editor. Using the editor, users are empowered to create scenarios that we never dreamt of during development.

I wonder if above map-editor really is situated under one of those tabs? I dont see any Map-edit tab - only terrain (for terrain-values, I guess). Perhaps a separate editor?

quote: The editors in Civilization III are only the beginning. Based on feedback from the mod and scenario community we will make additional improvements and incorporate new features. The editors are just tools, ones that the fan community needs to make meaningful by creating new scenarios with. As those in the 'trenches' of creating new content run into limitations, we'll work on eradicating those barriers. Firaxis is very interested in Civilization III having an active mod community, but need to know where our efforts are best spent. Together we can make Civilization III a potent platform for not only exploring factual history, but also your creativity and interests.

My bold & italic underlining.
Sounds promising, doesnt it? By the way - they should make that screenshot interactive

	20-10-2001 14:28									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf By the way - they should make that screenshot interactive

Funny you should say that- twice now I have tried to click on a screenshot to retrieve more info from it (only to be disappointed ).

Once was on a main map screen, where I tried to click on another city to see if I could see its city screen too.

And the other was with this editor screen- tried clicking one of the other tabs.

	20-10-2001 16:20									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shadowstrike I think there are a few extra nifty tools (I hope we can change more then simply the names of improvments and wonders (how about setting special effects for advacnes, instead of having them tied to slots?) ), but I'm still kind disappoointed that even a simple FW-esque event system wasn't added. If only there was some way of letting the designer push the plot along....

Yes I too was shocked by the absence of a scripting language! In Civ2, you could do quite some nifty things (reinforcements, historical keypoints, even making armies move to attack!). I sure hope these things are still possible! If this has all gone away, Civ3 is a step back. Disappointing!

	20-10-2001 16:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba rivers probably don't add to movement, unless the road number applies to rivers.

The Gamespot preview says that rivers now run between tiles instead of through them. In that case, I don't think units will be able to even get on them, let alone use them as roads.

The river defense bonus in the editor probably refers to the defender being on the other side of the river from the attacker, not actually in it.

I hope this is wrong. I liked exploring down the rivers.

	20-10-2001 18:35									#28
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I must admit that I didn't expect such a good
looking editor. At least it's clear and seems to
have plenty of editable options.

One more positive score for Firaxis.

	20-10-2001 19:10									#29
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I like the ability to add/edit technologies. Finally, a game where hoverships can mow down babylonian archers.

	20-10-2001 21:54									#30
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City Walls are not listed there because they are probably under the improvements/wonders tab.

I think citizen and building defense bonus represents citizens helping out when the city is under attack, and buildings being used as makeshift fortifications, awesome.

so many times I've tried to click on those images...