20-10-2001 10:57									#1
	Shaka the Terrible? Remove this text

From CotW:

"Shaka was no softy, even in Zulu terms; in the early 1820's, he and his army of Impi rolled over opposing tribes in a campaign that would come to be known as "Mfecane" (the Crushing). Some years later, Shaka's mother died, filling him with grief and compelling him to get in touch with his feelings. Unfortunately for every living thing in a fifty mile radius, those feelings were bitterness, rage, and vengeance. Shaka decreed that for one year, no new crops could be planted, nor could any milk be used. All pregnant women were murdered alongside their husbands, and cows were slaughtered so that even calves would know the pain of losing a mother."

WTF? You might as well have Hitler as the German leader then. This guy Shaka sounds like a role-model for every aspiring despot

Still, since the Zulus are considered a 'Militaristic' & 'Expansionistic' civ, Shaka is the right man for the job

	20-10-2001 15:02									#2
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Zulu?

ARRRRRRGHHHH!!!!

kill murder devastate !!!!

[you probobly know this is my fovorite hobby ]

	20-10-2001 15:30									#3
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The sad truth is we don't know very much about leaders BEFORE Shaka (1820s) and there haven't been any Zulus after the British ( militarily speaking ) beat the crap out them.

A few things to consider - Who says this is true? The British who destroyed them. Ever hear history is written by the victors? Ever hear that your enemy in a war likes to put babies on spikes?

They can't really pick anyone else because the tribes really only kept word of mouth records and as we killed a great deal of the tribe, including most likely the leaders who could have told the stories of leaders before Shaka, we don't know enough about any of them enough to use them as a leader.

	20-10-2001 18:40									#4
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There is such a thing as an oral tradition, you know. Shaka's eventual decline and madness was the end of a career as a ruthless, effective, power-hungry military genius, and happened well before the defeat at the hands of the british. It was not a glorious end, but most monarchs eventually go insane, don't they?

There were no "kings" before Shaka because the Zulu "kingdom" was then a mere chiefdom consisting of three villages, surrounded by large powerful tribes on most sides. Shaka grabbed power, and immediately set upon reorganising the military. Initially invading similar-sized neighbouring chiefdoms, Shaka eventually set about occupying the larger tribes in the area until he had a kingdom the size of France, and only then did he go nuts and killed a lot of his own people. Short of the Spartans, there has been no society in history so militarily focussed and the Zulus under Shaka- he divided all able-bodied men into "age regiments" that trained together from the age of five, devised dozens of new tactics (including stuff unheard of in the area before, like flanking and formations), ruthlessly turned all newly occupied villages into training camps, and kept an extremely strict military regimen at all times.

I certainly think Mao is worse from this angle.

	20-10-2001 18:41									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba The sad truth is we don't know very much about leaders BEFORE Shaka (1820s) and there haven't been any Zulus after the British ( militarily speaking ) beat the crap out them.

The Zulus are South Africa's largest ethnic group with ~9 million members. The language is still spoken, and oral traditions were taken down on paper as early as 1850.

	21-10-2001 22:07									#6
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Shaka is the leader cuz of the great military achivements he achieved. Won't say i would want him as my leader if i was zulu though.

I wouldn't exactly say that the british beat the crap out of the Zulus. The Zulus put up a damn good fight considering that they had short spears and the british had rifles.

	22-10-2001 01:08									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase The Zulus are South Africa's largest ethnic group with ~9 million members. The language is still spoken, and oral traditions were taken down on paper as early as 1850.

Well you can't deny that we ( the british ) killed a great number of those who would have passed on the aforementioned oral traditions.

So there'll be some gaps.

Can you even name those three villages?

	22-10-2001 01:18									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Mars Shaka is the leader cuz of the great military achivements he achieved. Won't say i would want him as my leader if i was zulu though. I wouldn't exactly say that the british beat the crap out of the Zulus. The Zulus put up a damn good fight considering that they had short spears and the british had rifles.

Oh I heartily agree. They put up a damn good fight against a very powerful foe, but as I was trying to point out, they were exterminated.