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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:15
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Since i'm the one who started the whole poll idea I really need to explain myself.
Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs.
One more difference of diplogames is they last far longer than a regular game and generate far more interest among the players than a regular game. Also the roster rotates as people sub in and take over for players so the number of people who at some point have been involved in this one game that has been going since January or February i believe is very large. It isn't just the 7 people currently playing it is the 25 people who have touched this game and affected the story in some point along its long run. All those people care about this game but since they aren't currently playing can't really affect it anymore, which is where my elections came in.
My elections gave all these people who had an interest in diplogames and in this game in particular a chance to affect its outcome. This is certainly not a selfish desire for more threads by the 7 people in the game, this is making a game available to be "played" by everyone in apolyton. If Eyes decides to play Markus does everyone else care all that much? Probably not, but if everyone else could help control the flow of action, tell Markus which wonder to build, tell Eyes which direction to send his chariot then the apolyton community as a whole would be interested and invested in the game. That is what was happening with my game and the election.
Now, you can easily dismiss this and say i'm fooling myself but in the 4 days my first poll was open (not the full week they would be in the future) it generated <b>16 total votes</b>. Far more than the 7 people in the game. If we could assume the 4 votes per day was a constant then weekly these polls would get <B>28 votes</B>. That is a fairly sizable amount of people who have concern for this game and want to get involved with it, much more than ANY game.
Also the threads were not just standard threads they made use of the poll feature on the apolyton forums. This cannot be done in just one thread. As with any election the votes cast should be kept anonymous or people won't vote honestly or won't vote at all. It would change the whole effect of the election.
I understand the concern for having too many pointless threads but i don't see how the one thread per game rule is the best way of accomplishing that goal. Many threads are started with little or no point to them and receive little or no response from everyone else. These threads clog up the forum just as much as everything else but because they are sepperate they are allowed to exist. If i wanted to announce the creation of 8 different games of which no one is interested in playing they would be allowed according to this rule because they are different games.
Now with History Of The World 2 it is indeed just one game, but the amount of interest it generates, the longevity it has, the passion of all those involved, and yes believe it or not the passion of all those not involved makes it far more benificial to the apolyton community than just another thread.
Now the worry exists that all 7 of us may wish to do weekly polls like mine, in which case i agree that would be too much, but as far as i'm aware the only player in the game who is interested in holding weekly polls is me. Deity's poll seemed to be a one time thing and so far no one else has expressed any interest in taking this course of action. Also with my thread it is only useful for one week, they will not need to remain open for more than that. So each thread can be closed each week. So it is only one extra thread a week normally, which I don't think will affect anyone in a negitive fashion.
A final point is about my "threat to leave the game" if I can't run polls. This isn't some threat of a brat trying to get his way. The story aspect of a diplogame is as much if not more important than the actual game itself. You cannot simply think about diplogames as you would a regular pick-up deathmatch game. I was loosing interest in the game because as the end of the game approached it was starting to loose some of the story and become more about the game. This started to bore me and I found a way to truly revitalize my interest in the game by adding a new feature to diplogaming and to HOTW which was the election. Now an important distinction needs to be made, the polls i created were not just an extra thread about a single game <b>they were the game itself</b>. As important to my playing of the game as city improvements, settlers, wonders, science and everything else. The story crafted around the diplogame is the game itself, to deny the story denies the game, to deny my poll denies my game. If the Apolyton mods could somehow prevent Markus from building wonders in his game he would be quite upset and understandibly so. That is how integral these polls are to my game.
To summerize:
1. This game has great interest of players and non-players alike.
2. These polls make all of apolyton a part of the game, make them all players.
3. Diplogames are much different than a standard game.
4. You cannot take away the story without taking away the game.
5. There is no evidence this will be more than one extra thread with occasional and very limited exceptions.
6. One per game rule doesn't sufficiently or fairly accomplish goal of stopping the clogged forum.
7. The Poll feature in these forums is distinct from just an extra, random thread.
I hope everyone reads this carefully and understands where we are coming from on this issue. Thank you.
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Ming
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quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs.
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Superior way to play... HUH? Many people find them boring because nothing really happens... again, a matter of opinion.
Diplo games in the past have survived with a single thread... so I don't buy the argument of different needs.
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One more difference of diplogames is they last far longer than a regular game and generate far more interest among the players than a regular game.
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I don't know about anybody else.. but EVERY game I play generates high levels of interest to me
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My elections gave all these people who had an interest in diplogames and in this game in particular a chance to affect its outcome. This is certainly not a selfish desire for more threads by the 7 people in the game, this is making a game available to be "played" by everyone in apolyton. If Eyes decides to play Markus does everyone else care all that much?
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I'll bet Eyes and Markus care... Just like you care about your game.
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Now, you can easily dismiss this and say i'm fooling myself but in the 4 days my first poll was open (not the full week they would be in the future) it generated <b>16 total votes</b>. Far more than the 7 people in the game. If we could assume the 4 votes per day was a constant then weekly these polls would get <B>28 votes</B>. That is a fairly sizable amount of people who have concern for this game and want to get involved with it, much more than ANY game.
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How do you even know if the people that voted actually cared...
Plus, your assumption on the projected total of votes is questionable... assuming a straight line vs the curve that is probably more likely.
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Also the threads were not just standard threads they made use of the poll feature on the apolyton forums. This cannot be done in just one thread. As with any election the votes cast should be kept anonymous or people won't vote honestly or won't vote at all. It would change the whole effect of the election.
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First, it is still a thread... and again, for all you know, people who didn't even follow the game might have voted... changing the effect that you actually desired
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I understand the concern for having too many pointless threads but i don't see how the one thread per game rule is the best way of accomplishing that goal. Many threads are started with little or no point to them and receive little or no response from everyone else. These threads clog up the forum just as much as everything else but because they are sepperate they are allowed to exist.
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While some threads may not be important to you, and you don't think they have any point... they had a point to somebody, or they wouldn't have been started. Every thread is important to the person that started it... as can be proved by the amount of whining that occurs every time a thread is closed or deleted
I have received complaints about the number of HOTW threads... so obviously, some people feel the same way about your game as you do the "pointless" threads.
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Now with History Of The World 2 it is indeed just one game, but the amount of interest it generates, the longevity it has, the passion of all those involved, and yes believe it or not the passion of all those not involved makes it far more benificial to the apolyton community than just another thread.
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Now you are just saying that your game is more important than any other game, and that it deserves special treatment. I continue to disagree. EVERY GAME is important...
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Now the worry exists that all 7 of us may wish to do weekly polls like mine, in which case i agree that would be too much, but as far as i'm aware the only player in the game who is interested in holding weekly polls is me. Deity's poll seemed to be a one time thing and so far no one else has expressed any interest in taking this course of action. Also with my thread it is only useful for one week, they will not need to remain open for more than that. So each thread can be closed each week. So it is only one extra thread a week normally, which I don't think will affect anyone in a negitive fashion.
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First... How do I know that other people in your game won't want to take advantage of it in the future... One already did. Plus, even if it was just you in YOUR game, the old threads would still be viewable for a period of time after you were through them... oh, that's right, I'm supposed to clean up after you...
Second... If you did it, other people playing in games have every right to ask for the same treatment... and that's the bigger issue.
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A final point is about my "threat to leave the game" if I can't run polls. This isn't some threat of a brat trying to get his way. The story aspect of a diplogame is as much if not more important than the actual game itself. You cannot simply think about diplogames as you would a regular pick-up deathmatch game. I was loosing interest in the game because as the end of the game approached it was starting to loose some of the story and become more about the game. This started to bore me and I found a way to truly revitalize my interest in the game by adding a new feature to diplogaming and to HOTW which was the election. Now an important distinction needs to be made, the polls i created were not just an extra thread about a single game <b>they were the game itself</b>. As important to my playing of the game as city improvements, settlers, wonders, science and everything else. The story crafted around the diplogame is the game itself, to deny the story denies the game, to deny my poll denies my game. If the Apolyton mods could somehow prevent Markus from building wonders in his game he would be quite upset and understandibly so. That is how integral these polls are to my game.
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It's too bad that you couldn't stay interested in the game. but I'm sorry... your analogy with us preventing Markus from building wonders is a joke... It's not even close to the same thing.
If you need somebody to make decisions for you to keep the game interesting... that's your problem. Somebody has raised the fact that you can't do the polls in your current thread because it takes away the mystery... actually, it might be more fun knowing who wants you to do what...
Using your logic, I could start posting a thread after every turn in any MP game, and claim that without it, I wouldn't play civ anymore...
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I hope everyone reads this carefully and understands where we are coming from on this issue. Thank you.
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I've responded to every point, so I hope everybody reads this as well so they know where I'm coming from... Thank You
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"Our game is indeed different (though not necessarily better) than all other games in this forum. It is a diplogame which means we post stories and roleplay the game with characters, maps, stories, history, pictures, and elections. For the people who have played and like diplogames it is a much superior way of playing the game to the standard kill your opponent as quickly as possible game. I'm not saying it is any better but diplogames certainly are different and have different needs."
Actually I think it makes you guys look more like geeks, but that's just an opinion too.
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23-10-2001 17:45
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