21-10-2001 04:19									#1
	Gamespot article on cheating AI Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Good little snippet on how game AIs cheat, out of necessity:

The Article

Now, we know that CivIII's AI is probably going to cheat, even as SMAC's AI did, and as just about every strategy game AI does.

I personally don't have a problem with AIs cheating, as long as it is masked and I don't see it blatantly happening; meaning, "I know the AI knows where my units are, but as long as he doesn't follow me around the map with his units, I don't care."

	21-10-2001 04:33									#2
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the biggest problem to me of AI cheating, especially in Civ2 is when playing MP. A lot of MP games involve Dropouts and hotjoins and in the intermediate stage the AI takes over the civ, due to AI cheating by the time the human comes back, the civ is in disorder and government collapses pretty well staright after...

It reaaly upsets the play of MP games,,, for MP I hope Civ 3 has another method of balancing game, even if it means the AI plays on same levels as humans..

	21-10-2001 05:42									#3
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As long as the AI does not get a reduction in the number of shields needed to build a Wonder, I don't care.

	21-10-2001 06:16									#4
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They have to make the AI cheat in order to make it play on the same level as us hardcore fanatics. Without the AI cheating the game would be, well, as easy as prince.

	21-10-2001 06:23									#5
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I don't mind 'cheating' by scaling resourses required, time required, etc. That just makes it more challanging.

I do mind outright cheating like getting a free unit in a city I am attacking every turn even though they have no money in the tresury, or only sending nukes at my cities that don't have SDI, or building a wonder in one turn, etc.

	21-10-2001 06:29									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Chuckles I don't mind 'cheating' by scaling resourses required, time required, etc. That just makes it more challanging. I do mind outright cheating like getting a free unit in a city I am attacking every turn even though they have no money in the tresury, or only sending nukes at my cities that don't have SDI, or building a wonder in one turn, etc.

Of course, there is also the other extreme. Like when in Civ2, the AI would launch about five nukes at the same city and each nuke got shot down by the SDI. Talk about wasteful.

As for the AI needing less shields to build wonders, why not? This is part of the challenge on Emperor and Deity. Don't like it? Then stay at Prince and under.

	21-10-2001 06:30									#7
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as long i can cheat too i dont care

	21-10-2001 15:52									#9
	Re: Gamespot article on cheating AI Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba "I know the AI knows where my units are, but as long as he doesn't follow me around the map with his units, I don't care."

Like the blasted barbarians used to follow my scout warriors in CTP2, and yet never managed to catch them.

But there is the problem of making a game that will keep the casual player/beginner entertained and involved but not be too easy for fanatics like us. As long as the game doesn't throw everything in favour of just one AI player (CTP), who can build all the wonders gets copies of everyone's tech and never goes to war with the human. That was just too easy, cause guess who the first person I always went to war with was. If the AI is going to cheat, let them all cheat equally and be competitive amongst themselves as well.

David

	21-10-2001 15:55									#10
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I think I'll just play on prince, otherwise there are too many riots.

If the AI is struggling I cheat for it, I'll give it money, units and cities. The barganing table will allow for me to try and ressurect dying civs with only one or two cities left.

And the price will be their artificial souls!

MAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

	21-10-2001 16:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba The barganing table will allow for me to try and ressurect dying civs with only one or two cities left.

Fab, isn't that from Hamlet?

I too like to play the 'great benefactor' role when it comes to weakened civs. One of the things I HATED about the AI in SMAC was that, even if I wanted to give my former enemies stuff so they could survive, they just wouldn't have it! How silly!

Hopefully CivIII's AI will allow us to show kindness to defeated foes, and will change their attitude towards our nations becuase of this kindness.

Otherwise--- Nuke the Sons of B|+(H3$!!

	21-10-2001 16:34									#12
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar As for the AI needing less shields to build wonders, why not? This is part of the challenge on Emperor and Deity. Don't like it? Then stay at Prince and under.

Since it will be close to impossible to rush build Wonders, how do you expect the human player to keep up?

	21-10-2001 16:43									#13
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I read the article, and I think I agree with the author. I would greatly appreciate better AI. I would love to be surprised by the AI, and I would love it if the AI could learn from my strategy, store it in a file, and continue to learn, time and time again, until eventually, it starts to implement some of the same strategies on me.

	21-10-2001 18:16									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't mind cheating as long as the AI doesn't begin to know things it can't know - like, where are my units, what am I building, which cities are defended by SDI and such. If it needs less resources at higher levels, or such, so be it.

	21-10-2001 22:58									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin I read the article, and I think I agree with the author. I would greatly appreciate better AI. I would love to be surprised by the AI, and I would love it if the AI could learn from my strategy, store it in a file, and continue to learn, time and time again, until eventually, it starts to implement some of the same strategies on me.

I totally agree with you. Oh, if only they could implement less artificial "intelligence", something with the ability to learn. Now that would be cool.

	21-10-2001 23:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Anunikoba Fab, isn't that from Hamlet? I too like to play the 'great benefactor' role when it comes to weakened civs. One of the things I HATED about the AI in SMAC was that, even if I wanted to give my former enemies stuff so they could survive, they just wouldn't have it! How silly! Hopefully CivIII's AI will allow us to show kindness to defeated foes, and will change their attitude towards our nations becuase of this kindness. Otherwise--- Nuke the Sons of B|+(H3$!!

Yep. Act 2 scene 2 line........ 310 or thereabouts.

But I prefer the fleshed out Star Trek reading.

"Ah yes, well I too know Hamlet. And what he may have said with irony, I say with conviction; What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving, how express and admirable in action, how like an angel in apprehension, how like a god"

It adds to it a bit.

Back on point, I mainly cheat to try and give he computer a better chance to be a good opponent while still staying on a difficulty level that meant I wouldn't be swamped with rioting revolutionaries. What I really want from a sequel is a different slider for AI difficulty and a different one for domestic. Then I could have my nation on ridiculously easy to control and the enemy on ridiculously powerful, meaning everyones cheating

Oh if only it could be so!