21-10-2001 19:36									#1
	Economic buildings shoud give cultural points. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yeah. As ive seen in the screenshots, economic buildings (marketplace, stockexchange, etc) dont give CP. The fact is that they should, because:
1) Culture is all what man do or make.
2) Every marketplace, or commercial center has its own "buy-fashion", i mean: its not the same, dont know, lets say, the 5° avenue in NY than a main street in Turkey, where do u have all that posts in the street, and all sceam, and such a things.

Every coutry has its own way to buy things. And thats why sould give CP, less than temples, libraries, ets, but shoud give.

Yep.

	21-10-2001 19:39									#2
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That's not true. Our culture was in no way enhanced when we started the Stock Exchange under a tree in New York.

	21-10-2001 20:03									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual Yeah. As ive seen in the screenshots, economic buildings (marketplace, stockexchange, etc) dont give CP. The fact is that they should, because: 1) Culture is all what man do or make.

Such a broad and indiscriminate view on what "culture" is, would be totally pointless, both in terms of Civ gameplay and in real life. If you paint a picture on a white canvas, using only one white colour of the exact nuance as the canvas itself - what would that achieve? No contrasts whatsoever. Cultural values that doesnt contrasts itself against "all what man do or make" are similarly contrastless & pointless.

	21-10-2001 20:20									#4
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Your culture is what makes up how people buy stuff and sell stuff.

Not how people buy and sell stuff makes up your culture.

(can't think of a better way to word it)

	21-10-2001 21:42									#5
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Culture is how a state is likely to run its economy, not how the economy is likely to run a culture. Culture controls how an economy is going to develop. For example, a communal society would lean towards a socialist state and a liberal society would lean towards a capitalist state.

	21-10-2001 21:56									#6
	Re: Economic buildings shoud give cultural points. Inflate your Upload Space

2) Every marketplace, or commercial center has its own "buy-fashion", i mean: its not the same, dont know, lets say, the 5° avenue in NY than a main street in Turkey, where do u have all that posts in the street, and all sceam, and such a things.

Thats a rather broad generalization
In most large metropolitain areas around the world you'll find shopping malls, stock excanges, corner stores and the like, and in most rural areas around the world you'll find those market stalls and yelling merchants your talking about. the ratio might be different but the mechanics are fairly constant; consumers and sellers exchanging things.

	21-10-2001 22:07									#7
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That's why I think buildings should increase your culture only if they match your Civ traits. So marketplaces, banks, stock exchanges would increase your culture if you were a Commercial civ. Libraries, universities, and research labs for a Science Civ. So on and so forth.

	21-10-2001 22:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael That's why I think buildings should increase your culture only if they match your Civ traits. So marketplaces, banks, stock exchanges would increase your culture if you were a Commercial civ. Libraries, universities, and research labs for a Science Civ. So on and so forth.

*far off in the distance, an overpowered sect of hardcore rebels are still screaming "slic, slic slic, slic...*

	21-10-2001 22:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 *far off in the distance, an overpowered sect of hardcore rebels are still screaming "slic, slic slic, slic...*

If I knew what you meant I might laugh... I've only been here a few months.

Care to elaborate?

	21-10-2001 22:25									#10
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Agreed. Sorry AV, you make a good point but it just doesn't hold up too well. Most items sold with any cultural significance tend to be either religious, artistic or scientific/languaged oriented.

I'm sure that cultural point generation will be in the editor so you can change it for yourself and other people who agree. Another for Firaxis I feel.

	21-10-2001 23:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael That's why I think buildings should increase your culture only if they match your Civ traits. So marketplaces, banks, stock exchanges would increase your culture if you were a Commercial civ. Libraries, universities, and research labs for a Science Civ. So on and so forth.

I like ur idea.

	21-10-2001 23:08									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael If I knew what you meant I might laugh... I've only been here a few months. Care to elaborate?

I think he's referring to the scripting language in ctp (1 or 2 i'm not sure) that allowed modders to do a lot of different things.

But I could be wrong about that.

	21-10-2001 23:12									#13
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Well it's definately a good idea but I doubt that it could be enabled in the editor.

Also had they put it in the game it would probably have been neigh impossible to diable for those that are opposed to the very idea of civ special traits.

Also ..... what are Militaristic supposed to do? Barracks

Expansionist? Grannary?

Those who were scientific, commercial or religious as both their traits would have a tremendously unfair advantage which would lead to balance problems.

Sorry guys, good idea once again, but it withers away when exposed to the harsh light of 'game balance to encourage would be consummers'

	21-10-2001 23:15									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Akron I think he's referring to the scripting language in ctp (1 or 2 i'm not sure) that allowed modders to do a lot of different things. But I could be wrong about that.

Which may arguably have been the reason the I part was missed out AI

The more complicated a game, the greater the task of making a half-decent AI. If it can stand it's own at Prince level without cheating, I will be suitably impressed.

Thats why the best AIs have only been developed for simple ( in bascis ) games like Chess.

	22-10-2001 00:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Such a broad and indiscriminate view on what "culture" is, would be totally pointless, both in terms of Civ gameplay and in real life. If you paint a picture on a white canvas, using only one white colour of the exact nuance as the canvas itself - what would that achieve? No contrasts whatsoever. Cultural values that doesnt contrasts itself against "all what man do or make" are similarly contrastless & pointless.

What would white paint on white canvas achieve? Ever notice that paintings have texture, and the texture of the paint has a big influnce on how the picture is perceived? I suppose such a painting, were the painted interested solely in texture would be quite interesting.

Part of the reason why economic buildings do not add to culture is for game ballance. IF every building contributed culture there would be less trade-offs that have to be made in building a city (yes, I know, economic buildings could give say half the culture of a university, I only said it would be LESS of a trade-off). I mean, the argument could be made that military buildings should increase culture (just look at the Zulus and Spartans), but that would bolix the trade-off balance also.

But if someone really wants a building to produce culture, then they should use the editor to give every building a culture production rating.

Here's an idea - how about buildings that hamper culture? Say, a television network affiliate that increases happiness with sitcoms (turn rioters into "Friends" watchers) but drains away high culture. Coliseums could do the same ("Hey Brutus, want to go down to the stoa and listen to Socrates?" "Nah, going to watch Rome kick Ravenna's sorry a$$e$! Gooooooo, Rome! Ooh! Ooh! Ooh!").

	22-10-2001 00:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar But if you insist, use the editor to give every building a culture production rating.

I certainly dont insist - its Asesino_Virtual.

Anyway, using the game-editor is a very good idea. Instead of pestering the Firaxis-team with dumb suggestions ( sorry ). Its too late to implement, and above suggestion is far too radical & controversial to implement in any future expansion-pack anyway.

	22-10-2001 00:43									#17
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He could have meant, if one wants to change it.....

	22-10-2001 01:35									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba He could have meant, if one wants to change it.....

Whoops! That's exactly what I meant. Edited original post to reflect this.

	22-10-2001 01:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 *far off in the distance, an overpowered sect of hardcore rebels are still screaming "slic, slic slic, slic...*

Until we see the culture tab in the editor, we don't know for certain that what Lorizael suggests is not possible, no scripting language necessary.

I like Lorizael's idea as well, having building produced cultured tied to civ-specific traits. Very nice.

	22-10-2001 03:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael If I knew what you meant I might laugh... I've only been here a few months. Care to elaborate?

yes, slic is the scripting language that allowed people like wesW and locutus to make ctp2 a much better game than it was when it came out (actually worth playing, in other words) im not saying civ3 will need a scripting language for this prupose of making the game playable, im saying it wil be helpful, and wil allow mod/scenario makers to make much better scenarios, and allow for much greater control than any gui editor with things like this; little tweaks one might want to make in the game to make it suitable to their realism/fun tastes. I know the editor will probably be great, and it will probably be able to do this particular function as well, its stil no scripting language.

	22-10-2001 05:35									#21
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Naahhh!

I don't like this idea- not for this game anyhow. Economics shouldn't have a lasting influence on culture (though sometimes it does), but rather, culture should GREATLY influence economics.

For CIV, economics and culture should be quite distinct, though related- just as military and economy are distinct, but do touch each other at several points in the game.

	22-10-2001 09:08									#22
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quote: If you paint a picture on a white canvas, using only one white colour of the exact nuance as the canvas itself - what would that achieve? No contrasts whatsoever.

quote: Ever notice that paintings have texture, and the texture of the paint has a big influnce on how the picture is perceived?

I'd hate to beat an off-topic dead horse, but a good example: that funky prickly white ceiling above most people's head.

	22-10-2001 09:29									#23
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You mean stucco?

	22-10-2001 12:45									#24
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Some real countries have very strong internal cultures with practically no buildings of any kind. Conversely America has developed such a strong culture over the last 250 years that it impinges on the whole of the world not just its immediate neighbours. Civ has ignored these extremes in finding game balance. It it means I have to stop and think before building units, settlers, granaries and marketplaces before thinking about building anything cultural other than a temple then good! Until we've played it enough we can't easily suggest sensible ways of expanding the idea.