21-10-2001 20:25									#1
	Okay, so do the new techs just kinda suck? Suffering from ads?

Having just clicked off the big ole tech list of Faboba's, I have come to the following conclusion:

The new techs suck.

I had high hopes for tech refinements - hoping that much like units, technology and their results would have, say, three levels of knowledge. Or that there would be a slightly longer list of them, to avoid unit avalanche or tech avalanche.

An example would be, say, Motorized Transportation (Mobile Warfare). I had hoped that it could be researched in three levels, as could other techs. The first level would have benefit A, second benefit B, and the third benefit C.

So, for Mobile Warfare:

Level 1 - Allows basic unit construction - armor (8/5/3)
Level 2 - Allows research of subsequent technologies (i.e. combined arms) - improves unit to (9/5/3)
Level 3 - Allows advanced unit construction (10/6/3 - 1 FP)

That's a military tech, let look at Masonry:

Level 1 - Allows construction of Palace and City Walls
Level 2 - Allows research of subsequent technologies (i.e. Construction)
Level 3 - Allows wonder construction (Great Wall, Pyramids)

Note that not every tech need have 3 levels, i.e. Sanitation doesn't need it. But it would add much more spice and variety to the game. As it is now, we have some real weak additions to the tech tree (free artistry? please...). But by stratifying the tech tree, you can create a very much enchanced research tree without having to make up bogus techs (music theory? What sissy festival came up with these new techs?)

And while we need to experience gameplay to tell, does anything indicate that unit avalanche will not occur? I mean how many people here built more than a couple Crusaders/Dragoons/Cavalry as the unit avalance to Mobile Warfare occurred? And will the late game tech avalanche be stemmed? I actually hate getting a tech every turn - it's boring. And yes, I'm playing on Deity level...

So - is it just me, or did the tech tree get kinda short shrift?

Venger

	21-10-2001 20:33									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

mmm, well the new "age" thing should sort that out, ylou have to have all the requiremnets to advance, no more having eg, tanks, when your houses are anchient, or whatever. the new techs are a bit rubbish though, probly cos of the culture they added culture techs. i wanted more of most stuff, but i suppose that leads to call to power, or maybe emopire earht

	21-10-2001 20:33									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's just you

	21-10-2001 20:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I concur, when i saw the tech tree i was kind of saddened. I like your idea much better. The age system won't do that much.

	21-10-2001 20:58									#5
	Venger, we all have our personal wishlists ... Increase the size of your Attachments

... but it is a game produced by someone else, so you cannot get your own way all the time.

And who knows, the proof may be in the experience. It (gasp!) might be a wonderful game despite all our second-guessing.

Maybe you will be able to customize it to your own specs with the editor!

I wanted a more educational game: All the barbarian towns have just as much chance of becoming a CIVILIZATION as any of the civs. There is potential for climate change (not pollution created), loss of science (dark ages), the plague, etc. Blah, blah, blah. ...

But I am sure that MY game wouldn't be played nearly as much as Sid's.

	21-10-2001 21:06									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We're (well at least me) are not saying that the game wil be bad. Just commenting on things that can be improved. Nothing is perfect and its better that you let someone know of their downfalls (in most cases) than to let them go unhindered. That way they can imporve on it later.

	21-10-2001 21:29									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I hate to sound like I'm blowing Firaxis' trumpet ( OK I don't actually. If it's anywhere near as good as it looks like it will I'll be very very happy and will starty a shrine to Firaxis. Maybe not to Sid, he is bald after all. Not that he's not a demi-god but still, can you really worship a bald guy? If man is made in the image of God that means your hair'll fall out. But I digress )

But if they did as you suggest it would become too complicated. Remember they want excellent re/playability, customisation and ease of 'jumpng in' ability.

They don't want something that only a select few can truly master ala Dungeons and Dragons.

Also they need to make an AI. Do you think an AI could cope with that? It's all to do with feasability, no matter how cool your idea is ( and it is, I'll freely admit that )

	21-10-2001 22:48									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Faboba I hate to sound like I'm blowing Firaxis' trumpet ( OK I don't actually. If it's anywhere near as good as it looks like it will I'll be very very happy and will starty a shrine to Firaxis. Maybe not to Sid, he is bald after all. Not that he's not a demi-god but still, can you really worship a bald guy? If man is made in the image of God that means your hair'll fall out. But I digress ) But if they did as you suggest it would become too complicated. Remember they want excellent re/playability, customisation and ease of 'jumpng in' ability. They don't want something that only a select few can truly master ala Dungeons and Dragons. Also they need to make an AI. Do you think an AI could cope with that? It's all to do with feasability, no matter how cool your idea is ( and it is, I'll freely admit that )

:

b: you got the point

	21-10-2001 23:12									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"They don't want something that only a select few can truly master ala Dungeons and Dragons."

ROTFLMAO!!!

OMG! *wipes tears from eyes*

D&D only mastered by a few... lol...

-Alech

	21-10-2001 23:13									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Dungeons and Dragons 3°Editio is easy to master!.

	21-10-2001 23:50									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Faboba They don't want something that only a select few can truly master ala Dungeons and Dragons. Also they need to make an AI. Do you think an AI could cope with that? It's all to do with feasability, no matter how cool your idea is ( and it is, I'll freely admit that )

D&D wans't exactly rocket science, you know.
My big concern would also be the AI not being able to deal with it. I already have my concerns anout the AI being able to deal effectively with resources.

	22-10-2001 00:14									#12
	Tired of ads?

Well to be honest my only contact with it was via Baldurs Gate ( in the name of the holy BlackIsle, amen ) but from what I saw in that the whole system seemed needlessly complicated in some points.

I mean anyone know what dice roll a kensai with weapons mastery in katanas and using a +2 weapon of that type and a base Thac0 of -22 needs to hit a green dragon with a base AC of -10 and using Improved invisibility?

No. I didn't think so. I'm just glad it was the game calculated all that!

	22-10-2001 00:29									#13
	HEY CHUMP!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: (music theory? What sissy festival came up with these new techs?)

Ok, music theory is wussie.
Don't forget- stop listening to the radio, turn off all of your sound when watching TV, movies, and playing video games. Don't whistle (or hum), and by all means, NEVER go to a live concert.

Eat in silence at the restaurants, forget about tweeners at live sporting events, and rollerskate in silence as well.

No need for home stereos anymore, nor for CD players in cars, and while we're at it, let's just get rid of all of those pesky speaker things.

Destroy the guitars!!!
Destroy the live jazz bands!
Destroy the music that strippers strip to!
Destroy the multi-billion dollar music industry!
Let the rabbits wear glasses, can I get an AMEN???
(baa)
Can I get a hallelujah!!!
(hallelujah!)


Music has changed your life much, much more than you know.

Sarcastically,
Nick Wallace
Pineapple Recording Studios
Manager
Head Engineer
Twin Buddha Records
A&R Representative

	22-10-2001 01:17									#14
	Re: HEY CHUMP!!! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by cassembler Destroy the multi-billion dollar music industry!

This would be a bad thing? I get alot of music here these days because the music industry puts out so much garbage. Actually, just to get back on topic, I would go so far as to say major labels have yet to discover music theory (What? Every alternarock song does not have to be mixed by Tom Lord-Alge? The hell you say!)

	22-10-2001 02:44									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If you want a game with a realistic research model, try "clash of the civilizations."

In the civ series, techs represent the technological, social, political, and economic factors and development that go along with the techs title. You're not just researching combustion, but metallury, fuels, etc... . Civ is macro scale at its most abstract (I still ge the urge to slap someone upside their head when they refer to an on-screen unit as a single soldier/ tank/spy/whatever Your idea just doesen't fit in with scheme of things

	22-10-2001 03:21									#16
	Remove this text

quote: This would be a bad thing? I get alot of music here these days because the music industry puts out so much garbage.

I'm gonna make this brief so that this thread doesn't close- YES, the music industry puts out lots of garbage, but so does EVERY OTHER industry that I know of (if you think of an exception, let me know).
Seriously, and on-topically, I think ANY additional advance is welcome, regardless of seeming insignificance, UP TO A POINT.

quote: Civ is macro scale at its most abstract

I see what you're sayin', and I agree. If we had to research thirteen different types of plastics, two hundred different types of guns, and sixteen different airplane engines I would buy a different game.

	22-10-2001 05:17									#17
	Got spare money?

I like the traditional CIV tech tree that Firaxis has implemented for CivIII. The system suggested is overly complex for this game.
K.I.S.S.- Keep It Sympol Stoopid!!

	22-10-2001 09:51									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Faboba Well to be honest my only contact with it was via Baldurs Gate ( in the name of the holy BlackIsle, amen ) but from what I saw in that the whole system seemed needlessly complicated in some points. I mean anyone know what dice roll a kensai with weapons mastery in katanas and using a +2 weapon of that type and a base Thac0 of -22 needs to hit a green dragon with a base AC of -10 and using Improved invisibility? No. I didn't think so. I'm just glad it was the game calculated all that!

Well, you'd take the -22 Thac0, subtract the -10 AC, realize the dragon was invisible, and you couldn't attack it anyway!

	22-10-2001 11:40									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

Some fellow posters seem to have missed out what this game is about : Civilisation. What we have with the game are civ advances that allow a player's nation to progress from a bunch of cave dwellers to a group of enlightened individuals.

I see the new civ advances as part of an - and overdue - overhaul to a system that used to lean too much on the warmongering side.


[Off topic]
AD&D is needlessly complicated. It is just a pile of things haphazardly thrown together. Later editions improve the situation somewhat, but still fail to provide a system that is based on a few overarching rules.