23-10-2001 23:17									#1
	Gui Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The present (D5) GUI works as follows:

There is a large window, with some menus, containing:

• A toolbar, currently containing buttons, ultimately icons
  
• The main map, covering most of the area
  
• A task force or units box, conating army information
  
• A "details" box giving information about the currently slected square.
  
• An "information" box which, essentially, logs events as they occur.
  

	24-10-2001 02:55									#2
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[edit] I just realized there is an old thread that may be of use on interfaces. Here is: Overall Clash Interface Design from Waaaay back.

There is also some good stuff in a slightly less old thread:Demo 5 Interface

Hmmmm, well I agree the Info box is quite kludgey, but I find it rather useful. You can have the space if you want for the world map, but you have to give me something where I don't have to chew through 5 or more separate popups ever time a turn is cranked to see what happened.

How about this... at player discretion an info screen pops up over a fair-sized chunk of the screen when the turn is done. (Leave as much of the main map showing as possible) It can have enough room to show salient details on 5-8 areas of the game. If you want More detail then hovering over the small Econ area, FE, within the info screen will give you a popup with a more detailed report. To issue orders you click on the econ area. Eventually this could be made quite attractive with graphics that support the verbage so that you may not even have to read much of it.

There will also be a button or whatever for the player to get this screen whenever they want. So if they don't want it popping up they can call it when needed. In the future there could be a set of triggers as to whether it pops up or not that the player could set. IE come up when: war declared, disaster of x size, rioting of more than y people...

We can see if anyone else has some ideas from other products or their own brains... But IMO a t a minimum there needs to be some informational readout that can be accessed without having to push a button at the beginning of Every Single Turn.

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 11-11-2001 at 06:40

	24-10-2001 05:30									#3
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How bout like in Imperialism where you had a "newspaper" info screen at the start of every turn. You could set it up like this:

- Have two sections of the paper: domestic and international.
- Each heading is a hyperlink to a new "detail info" window.
- Domestic holds everything happening to that player.
- International holds important world info ( other alliances, major battles, etc).

The beauty is it gives a chance for a fancy writer to come up with some funny/interesting stories for the headlines. They only need to be a paragraph long too. IE:

"Scientists discover gunpowder!"

"In a tragic turn of events, Professor Ipwich's quest for glory in
trying to discover the perfect beer has ended up blowing off his
hand in an experiment gone wrong. On the upside, the powdery
residue left over from the explosion is reputably highly volotile
and causes small explosions when hit with a hammer. Scientists
believe this could be made into a new and powerful weapon.
Meanwhile, Prof Ipwich refuses to comment from his bed in
hospital."

Another good thing about this sort of game feedback is it makes the player feel like they're influencing the world and making headlines. "Possitive Feedback" they call it. Game makers call it "The Player-Story" as opposed to the game's "Main Story".

	24-10-2001 06:10									#4
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Hey Dale:

That sounds pretty good to me. Although being a science dweeb, my inclination is to cram as much information in as possible! But especially when there's not much to say we could throw some zingers in. Lets see what everybody thinks.

	24-10-2001 06:33									#5
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Now that is a good idea for D15 or thereabouts. There is a huge amount of work involved.

quote: Hmmmm, well I agree the Info box is quite kludgey, but I find it rather useful. You can have the space if you want for the world map, but you have to give me something where I don't have to chew through 5 or more separate popups ever time a turn is cranked to see what happened.

Another way of doing it is to have a abbreviated list of events pop up at the end of the turn. As long as each entry is one line long. Clicking on the line will give a popup with more detail.

How many turns do you expect to hold in memory?

Cheers

Gary

	24-10-2001 06:46									#6
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In memory I'd say Max 10 turns. 5 would probably do.

	24-10-2001 11:48									#7
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The information frame has proven invaluable for debugging, and it really helps. I agree that keeping more than 5 turns (maybe 10) is pointless. I usually expand it and use it much in order to have details about the output of fights. I definitely don't want to have to go through a popup for that. In later versions, other systems could be made to find out where battles occurred and how they fared, but currently a persistent text window is a must.

	24-10-2001 11:56									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson Hey Dale: That sounds pretty good to me. Although being a science dweeb, my inclination is to cram as much information in as possible! But especially when there's not much to say we could throw some zingers in. Lets see what everybody thinks.

That's the purpose of the hyperlink headings. They open a small child window with the important game details relevant to the heading. IE: Click on the headline "Construction Discovered!" from the newspaper opens a child window as below:

"Construction Discovered!"

"New buildings:
- Aqueduct (Allows size 9+ cities)
- Wall (Defense +50%, aborts slavers)
- Capital (Allows rebuilding/moving capital)

New Units:
- Construction Team (Builds roads)"

Whereas the first page will hold a short blurb. Eventually, players will know what each message means and only read the headlines, like when you know from memory what advances allows what buildings/units/improvements/etc. In this case, the details don't need to be on the turn summary screen, but is easily accessed via the hyperlink headlines to refresh the memory.

	25-10-2001 01:02									#9
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My take on all the comments is that the Information box is a useful debugging tool. There are, of course other debugging tools available. At present they are accessed by a command line switch. Is there any objection to the information box being accessible that way, while a more user friendly version is the standard?

Dale: the program uses Java Swing, not a browser. So hyperlinks are not available - after all somewhere the resulting HTML data has to be generated. However, popups will achieve the same effact.

Cheers

	25-10-2001 02:00									#10
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Gary:

My problem with your proposal is that I consider it user-hostile, not user friendly, to have to plunge through several popups to get simple overall information on what is going on. I'm easily annoyed by such things, as you may have noticed For debugging purposes a command-line switch would do fine. Both for debugging and play I would prefer to have a fair amount of critical information up-front in a single view.

But we still need to agree on something that keeps both of us happy in the short term and the long. I already offered an alternative where a refined version of the information frame could either appear or not at user discretion. And you can pursue the approach you've wanted. But I do want an optional holistic information screen as a long-term part of the GUI. Not just a debugging tool. What is wrong with that? Now if you want to do your new thing while giving me the info box as an option short-term, while agreeing to support something like the newspaper long-term, I've got no problem with that.

	25-10-2001 08:37									#11
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As far as I can see, the main difference between my latest proposal and yours is that yours has all the little details in it, making it extremely difficult to find specifics. Mine will have, in effect, main headlines which can be clicked on to provide detail if required. So it would look like:

Combat in [5, 7], Carthaginians vanquished Romans
Combat in [6, 9], Carthaginians and Romans, inconclusive
New Carthaginian Phalanx built in [5, 8]
Army reorganization, Carthaginian army Hanno II formed

Cheers

	25-10-2001 14:34									#12
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Is it possible to use hot text or hot windows (just appearing when you move the mouse pointer over them). It would give you the headlines (+saving screen space) and require only one move and no clicking to see the info. With optional clicking of course if you wanted to make the window permanent.

	25-10-2001 16:25									#13
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What about a customizable information output?
Qe could have a preferences/settings somewhere, and decide we want in the output window information of various levels:
e.g. Military 3/3, Econ 2/3, Tech 1/3...
I suggest 4 levels, which could be termed as (0)none, (1)minimal, (2)default, (3)maximal.
You'd get a window with all text according to the level of output specified, and, if the level is less than 3, an option to get a popup window by clicking in order to get more information. That way I combine everyone's needs in one window with just a settings to change. It could even be an option to change the settings at run-time when you realize you are always opening one kind of pop-up by clicking somewhere in that pop-up to say you always want more detail.

	25-10-2001 16:45									#14
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Yeah, I like Laurent's suggestion for long-term.

Gary, I have no problem with your syntax for getting military (or other) info to the player. I think we actually reached agreement, and then I lost track of part of it. I glossed over in my mind your following :

quote: Another way of doing it is to have a abbreviated list of events pop up at the end of the turn. As long as each entry is one line long. Clicking on the line will give a popup with more detail.

This is indeed basically what I wanted, and is Fine

What I thought I was still dealing with was:

quote: In particular, there would be economic events, combat events, technology events. Clicking on one of these would produce a popup list of the events that occurred in the just completed turn.

The latter I dislike because this means (provided I understand your description) that to find out what is going on I need to go to this button/menu item and
1. Click on Economy, view,
2. Click on Military, view,
3. Click on Diplomacy, view,
and it goes ON and ON
And as I said this is ok IMO as an option, but should not be forced upon everyone.

So I think we're back in reasonble agreement and just need to work out a short-term spec for what information is shown.

Cya, Mark

	25-10-2001 22:40									#15
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Simon:
That is a good idea. I will check it out.

Mark:
Yeah - I discarded that almost immediately, but didn't make the fact explicit. Sorry.

Otherwise, I am glad we agree. I will get onto it.

Laurent:
That is a reasonable idea, but I don't think our code is sufficiently developed to use it at present. Unless we have a pretty clear idea of what we want in terms of categories, and what goes in each level of each category, I think we should leave it for later.

Cheers

	05-11-2001 02:27									#16
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The military model command structure is designed and written (but not yet tested). In the immediate future I will probably keep the (bad) system using the TF box to organize TFs, just to get things working. However, pretty soon I would like to do it properly, with a drag and drop tree similar to that in Windows Explorer. When you click on a node in the left panel you get its name in the panel at the top and a breakdown in the panel at the right. To move a command to another command, drag and drop it. Right click to rename or delete.

When the government command structure is coded (soon), the same system will work there.

What do you think?

Cheers

	05-11-2001 02:54									#17
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Sounds pretty cool! I'm game to check it out when it comes to a demo near me. Should fit in well with our micromanagment philosophy too. If you want to avoid details you issue orders, and scope things out, near the trunk of the tree. If you're a micromanagement freak you can twiddle the leaves .

	05-11-2001 04:12									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That is pretty much the idea.

However, the depth of the tree will be fixed (for a given tech level). Also commands cannot be moved to a different level (to prevent an Army Group being subordinate to a Brigade, or a Province subordinate to a map square).

Cheers

	05-11-2001 14:51									#19
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Seems cool, Gary. Would it be possible to somehow highlight the corresponding units on the map when you select their command (change power circle color)? Maybe allow to center on next unit of the command?
I stop my suggestions before you ask me to code them .

	06-11-2001 01:20									#20
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quote: Seems cool, Gary. Would it be possible to somehow highlight the corresponding units on the map when you select their command (change power circle color)? Maybe allow to center on next unit of the command?

There will certainly be some way of identifying the units on the map. Not yet quite sure what.

quote: I stop my suggestions before you ask me to code them

Damn.

Cheers

	11-11-2001 05:53									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just wanted to mention that I just posted a link to an old discussion on GUIs in my first post in this thread.

	11-11-2001 06:26									#22
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Copy from the old thread I posted in:

I think that we do need an overview screen that shows the highlights of all models. This would provide a single look at the most important aspects of the civ. It could also be the information panel that pops up every turn, replacing the info box.

Here's a possibility. Note that it is smaller than the real one would be, in order to fit on the forums. There would be a frame for each model, and each frame would need to be bigger to accomodate more information. The real overview would probably fill the whole screen:

	11-11-2001 06:28									#23
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Apparently you can't attach a file when you edit a post if the attachment wasn't sent the first time.

Attachment: status screen.gif
This has been downloaded 87 time(s).

Last edited by Richard Bruns on 11-11-2001 at 23:54

	11-11-2001 12:08									#24
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Richard, I like your image a lot.
I am not sure how to get the texts as pretty as you had, but that is another matter.
It could be good to add flavor texts when "nothing happens" ( in a special color/font)
Example for the military:
"Our regiment XXX won the inter regiment race this year" (could even give the name of strongest unit here).
For science:
"This year nobel prize went to Dr Burns for his experience on explosives. By blowing up his whole lab, he proved explosives had great potential as a weapon."

	12-11-2001 06:22									#25
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Richard's screen is very close to what I had in mind, except that he split them up into categories - a good idea!

My will look quite similar. However, each panel will be a scrolling panel, and each entry will lead to an expanded view (with more information) if clicked.

On the other hand I will not put in anything "for later". I would rather add things as they become functional.

Oh, Richard, congratulatons on cracking the table spaces problem!

Cheers

	15-12-2001 20:03									#26
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The Events Display is the current version of what Richard suggested above, and Gary has implemented for D6. Everybody will see it in D6 soon. In playtesting I've come up with some opinions on how this should evolve in the near future.

Presently the Events box is arranged like Richards example above with four roughly equal size boxes in a 2x2 arrangement. It comes up on the upper right portion of the screen, over the Units and Details boxes. It also covers about 1/4 of the main map. My simple proposal is that Events should be presented instead in a column format 1x4 or so, on the right side of the screen, and cover none of the main map. (I find myself continually having to take actions to make Events disappear since Events is covering the part of the main map I'm interested in.) This rearrangement would also be beneficial in allowing a bit more length to the line describing each event. (Each box (Military, etc) could be a bit wider than present) Since there are rarely more than 5 events in any one sub-box it should fit ok.

Opinions?

	15-12-2001 20:48									#27
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That sounds good. But what happens when more models come online and there are more than four boxes? We may have to find a way to shrink and expand the boxes.

I really liked the interface in the Zeus game in the Impressions city building series. All the information and action buttons the player needed were on a group of panels in the right side of the screen, and the city view was the rest of the screen. Mark, what you describe seems quite similar.

	16-12-2001 01:17									#28
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Each event list could be displayed only if something happens if se have a 1x4 box, and when there are more models, that would be true too. I guess some models have fairly rare events anyway, like government or foreign ministry, at least not one every turn (rather, the foreign advisor amount is inversely proportional to the number of military). So this display could be OK.
I also think that showing more than 6 items in any event display category would be too difficult (cluttered) to read, however we present them. Either a (more) button could be an option then?

	16-12-2001 07:03									#29
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I will implement Mark's (all in one column) and Laurent's (only show if something happens) suggestions. I was going to anyway...

Cheers

	23-03-2002 08:46									#30
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*bump

Color mentions in his coder description that he has extensive experience in Swing, and Gonzalo has a lot of experience with user interfaces. And they both speak Spanish (while on the subject, don't forget Fiera, from Hispania, and Emporer level, still posting to the Apolyton CS Forums/HostedSites/HS-The Spanish Civilization II Site, who did most of the art to date). Perhaps we can get a subsystem here to work on the gui, while I get onto other things.

Mark and I have been exchanging emails expressing concern at the state of the user interface. Maybe we can use the expertise expressed here to improve the situation.

As I understand it, Color has the deeper understanding of Swing, but Gonzalo's is experienced with user interfaces, but not, I think, in Java. Is this the case? If so, I don't really think that VB experience is going to help with coding (it is only two and a half years since I was employed as a VB expert).

Another thing is that we will not use autogenerated gui code, which tends to give a huge and incomprehensible list of components, all at the top level for the generated component.

That said, I would dearly love for someone to improve the system we have.

There are two immediate problems I have. One i sthat the scroll bars in the task force window do not work correctly, the other is that if you put a slider on a JInternalFrame, then bring it to the front the slider is invisible (it still works though, if you know it is there).

Ideas on fixing these would advance the cause.

Cheers