24-10-2001 08:56									#151
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned And if you can only irrigate a few squares, then you will never have more than a couple surplus food per turn.

This also helps to make Despotism, Monarchy, and Republic forms of government more viable later into the game, without the loss of too much food production. More food was one of the main reasons I would switch to the newest available government in Civ2 - now I can really weigh my options, and factor in drafting units, war weariness, etc.

	24-10-2001 08:57									#152
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What's the stats for the regular Panzer. The 16,8,3 is for the German UU Panzer.

	24-10-2001 08:58									#153
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From the city view shot it would appear that some tiles can produce over 3 food with irrigation. Mountains even without mines now produce some commerce and more then one shield, this should balance out not being to irrigate all cities. These changes are looking great.

	24-10-2001 08:59									#154
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quote: Originally posted by dennis580 What's the stats for the regular Panzer. The 16,8,3 is for the German UU Panzer.

Tha Panzer IS the one and only UU. I believe the Panzer replaces light armor but I'm not sure of the stats on this unit.

	24-10-2001 09:01									#155
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ I hope no confederate soldier's (Robert Lee) get any kind of honor in this game. Anyway, some other ones I was thinking of: William Henry Harrison Dwight Eisenhower Richard Montgomery Nat Turner "Stonewall" Jackson (Thomas J. Jackson) Benjamin Rush Alexander Hamilton

Anybody home in there?!

	24-10-2001 09:04									#156
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But hell, as long as Lee was on the table anyway...

Nat Turner is better defined as a murderer than a leader.

Alexander Hamilton was Washington's second in command but he never fired a shot in anger.

Tons of crappy choices made my list

Edit:: D'oh! I screwed that up. General Horatio Gates was the one whom suffered from so much cowardice that he fled a battle and was last seen buying a horse 500 miles from the side. Too many damn Generals to remember.

Last edited by CygnusZ on 24-10-2001 at 09:13

	24-10-2001 09:04									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie This also helps to make Despotism, Monarchy, and Republic forms of government more viable later into the game, without the loss of too much food production. More food was one of the main reasons I would switch to the newest available government in Civ2 - now I can really weigh my options, and factor in drafting units, war weariness, etc.

How do Monarchy and Republic affect food in Civ2?

	24-10-2001 09:06									#158
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quote: Originally posted by HalfLotus How do Monarchy and Republic affect food in Civ2?

Allows you to have more than 2 food per tile. All goverments had this benefit except Despotism and Anarchy if you would count that as a goverment.

	24-10-2001 09:44									#159
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Wow...I'm overwhelmed. I rrreeeeeaaaaalllllllllyyyyy want this game now...(flux sits twidling his thumbs to the Jeopardy theme song).

	24-10-2001 09:53									#160
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ I hope no confederate soldier's (Robert Lee) get any kind of honor in this game. Anyway, some other ones I was thinking of: William Henry Harrison Dwight Eisenhower Richard Montgomery Nat Turner "Stonewall" Jackson (Thomas J. Jackson) Benjamin Rush Alexander Hamilton

That list is garbage.
"Stonewall" Jackson was a confederate
Alexander Hamilton was not a general or a soldger
Nat Turner was an insane person who murdered inocent wemen and children

How aboul Rommel and Alexander the Great.

	24-10-2001 09:57									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Insigna That list is garbage. "Stonewall" Jackson was a confederate Alexander Hamilton was not a general or a soldger Nat Turner was an insane person who murdered inocent wemen and children How aboul Rommel and Alexander the Great.

Uh... Hamilton WAS a soldier. Washington's second in command (was a Colonel, I believe). Did a rearguard delaying action while Washington was retreating over the Raritan River (in NJ).

Jackson was a Confederate, but Confed culture is part of American.

	24-10-2001 09:59									#162
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Anyone else notice that in the Military Screen, that you have the ability to upgrade units?
Damn!

This game keeps on getting better and better

	24-10-2001 10:09									#163
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On the City Build Requests screen, the last item on the list is "Wealth". Given that it only takes one turn to build and by the name, this must be the Civ 3 version of Capitalization. I believe that this is new info and was debated on another thread.

I cannot believe how cool this game is going to be. They have thought of everything. I especially like the new requirement for a fresh water source. Makes ancient city building much more realistic as most major ancient cities were built on rivers. There are so many details to digest in every decision. I cannot wait to play.

	24-10-2001 10:18									#164
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quote: Alexander Hamilton was a military leader?

Considering the "Great Leaders" can be used by non-military players strictly to complete production, I'd say having a non-military Great Leader would be just fine.

	24-10-2001 10:39									#165
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But leaders are promoted from elite fighters.

	24-10-2001 10:52									#166
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Its very obvious from the "zoomed out" pic that your borders do not extend into the deep sea. Gotta go back and look over these again....

	24-10-2001 10:58									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Uh... Hamilton WAS a soldier. Washington's second in command (was a Colonel, I believe). Did a rearguard delaying action while Washington was retreating over the Raritan River (in NJ). Jackson was a Confederate, but Confed culture is part of American.

Ok, I said I didn't think confederates should make the list. That doesn't mean that I'm necessairly 100% right. It's just if it were at my personal discretion I wouldn't use them.

Secondly, Hamilton WAS Washington's Second in Command, BUT he never fired a single shot of participated in a single battle. In fact, he doubted the revolutionary cause was even worth fighting for at times. Often in the post-revolutionary period his shady participation made him seem like he had borderline "Revolutionary credentials".

(Remember, after his Washington Appointment to Sec. of Treasury he was never given a cabinet position again even though it was fashionable in the early days of the Republic to give cabinet positions to people with opposing views)

Nat Turner was the leader of a slave rebellion in Virgina (I think I have the state right... don't hold me up to that). He killed men women and children alike in his rebellion. Perhaps it could be debated his cruel, it could be argued it was necessary. Remember that Slave rebellion's in the Union were inspired by the Hatian revolution which involved killing men/women/children. He could well be considered a great hero and a great villian. I tend to err on hero (no more mercy for slave owners than for Nazi's).

	24-10-2001 11:15									#168
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Did anyone notice one of the cities (shanghai) in the screenhots is building a privateer? anyone knows what is that?Shanghai
building Privateer

	24-10-2001 11:27									#169
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anyone notice that you need aqueduct to get past 6 pop?

its in the smart governer screen above......

	24-10-2001 11:39									#170
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There is a some speculatino as to what the Privateer is- some think it is a 'pirate' type unit.

And yes: I noticed the Aquaduct pop-limit effect. And, I rather kind of expected it anyhow.

	24-10-2001 12:06									#171
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quote: Secondly, Hamilton WAS Washington's Second in Command, BUT he never fired a single shot of participated in a single battle. In fact, he doubted the revolutionary cause was even worth fighting for at times. Often in the post-revolutionary period his shady participation made him seem like he had borderline "Revolutionary credentials".

He may not have fired a single shot, but then did Washington? And yes, he did participate in a battle. Like I told you, he commanded a rear-guard delaying action as Washington retreated across the Raritan. There is a monument in New Brunswick (NJ) to commemorate that.

quote: (Remember, after his Washington Appointment to Sec. of Treasury he was never given a cabinet position again even though it was fashionable in the early days of the Republic to give cabinet positions to people with opposing views)

That could be because he was shot and killed in 1803 by Aaron Burr .

And I wonder by what example do you figure that it was fashionable to give cabinet positions to those with opposing views? I don't recall any of them in Adams' of Jefferson's administration, unless you count the Vice President under Adams (because Jefferson got the 2nd highest vote total, and under original laws, there was no Presidential 'ticket').

	24-10-2001 12:13									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Boliao Did anyone notice one of the cities (shanghai) in the screenhots is building a privateer? anyone knows what is that?Shanghai building Privateer

Yeah, but no word or mention on whether its the same privateer concept as Colonization (able to attack enemy Civs without them knowing which Civ you were from, free pirating . Let's hope it's so.

	24-10-2001 12:21									#173
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Hey there's a good amount of actual game info in this preview, can we skip the pointless arguement over American military leader names, all they are is names, no pictures, no unique benefits, if you don't like them edit their names till you're happy.

Maybe we can actually get back on track actually discuss game concepts from the preview. Here's one I'm partial too:

quote: PC.IGN Mountains and jungles are also off limits to wheeled units unless they are traveling on a road

There's some strategic possibilities to this rule. Scorched earth burning roads is now a viable strategy to defend from invasion. Infantry gain more use even though modern armor is much more powerful, as infantry are required to do the forest/mountain. fighting.

	24-10-2001 12:25									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 Your right, since they only have 12 wonders in the game. Maybee leaders should only be allowed to buy mini-wonders? But remember wonders cant be rushed in any other way...

There are 32 wonders in the game, 12 of which are minor wonders. Actually I'm not sure about the 32 total, but certain of the 12 minor.

	24-10-2001 12:31									#175
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City Screen

Check this screen out. The irrigation tiles give no more food then un-irrigated plains? They're both by river tiles, is this why?

	24-10-2001 12:41									#176
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quote: There's some strategic possibilities to this rule. Scorched earth burning roads is now a viable strategy to defend from invasion. Infantry gain more use even though modern armor is much more powerful, as infantry are required to do the forest/mountain. fighting.

The defense values will also allow inferior infantry to give quite a licking to more advanced infantry. I will also be neat to have artillery sitting to the side of the mountain or jungle and fire at the enemy from afar.
I wonder if units in the jungle, or certain guerrilla units will be invisible until an enemy tries to enter their units, ala xenofungus?

	24-10-2001 12:43									#177
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OK, I don't get this:

quote: One thing that they can't do anymore is irrigate land without a fresh supply of water. Cities along the coast had better also be near a river or lake or inland sea if you want them to grow quickly. Once you discover electricity you can irrigate anywhere. Cities on rivers become even more important as a result.

He means "supply of fresh water," right? OK, just making sure. Now the comment about electricity: if you can irrigate anywhere, does that mean even on tiles without any access to any kind of water, whether sea or fresh water? If so, I don't get it. How can you irrigate without water? How can I just start irrigating in the middle of the Sahara without drawing off water from a nearby source? (Maybe I'm on an oasis, but that's a special case). On the other hand, if the comment means that after you discover electrity then you can irrigate with sea water, then that makes sense to me. But which is it?

Still, I like this concept very much

	24-10-2001 12:45									#178
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Serapis, what are you talking about?

If you look closely, you can see every tile that produces 2 or more food, is irrigated.

	24-10-2001 12:55									#179
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I've got about 5 minutes till I have to go to school so this is in case no one mentioned it ( as I've no time to read all 4 pages )

In one of the city screens you can see maintainance for city improvements is actually being taken from the trade / commerce generated by that city.

This has the pretty cool effect that now your cities need to support their own improvements rather than you supporting them over your civ as a whole.

	24-10-2001 14:05									#180
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The deal with rivers is, I think, going to determine a lot of early developed strategies.

For a start, if there is no movement bonus for the river (any evidence that there is a bonus?) then one of the means of really exploring the map readily available in Civ2 is gone. Unless that is, the scout gets a big movement bonus and is available early on.

Defensive bonuses will be good, but of course the AI could well be thinking the same thing.

I think that fresh water irrigation will make most people think twice about locating their capital city on a sea edge. Pros: Once you have a harbour your trade with other Civs is gonna be easier. Cons: City growth is going to be sluggish without irrigation, and since settler production ultimately depends upon whether you can afford those two pop. points, I think it will slow down your own civilization growth.

Electricity is definately a 'target' discovery in the same way that Invention or Monotheism was in Civ2. Without extensive irrigation, the population spurt that drives your cities to the modern day just doesn't happen. How important is it to discover electricity first? Would you trade it?

Any other thoughts?