24-10-2001 09:00									#1
	Can we think of 3 or 4 good leaders for each civ? Get a bigger avatar today!

It's hard to say for sure exactly many leaders each civ will have, but I imagine it's hard to think of more than 3 or 4 with, say, the Aztecs or Zulus.

	24-10-2001 11:23									#2
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americans: abe, FDR, washington, clinton

brits: elizabeth I, william the conquerer, henry VIII, victoria

french: louis VIVIVIVIV, mitterand, de gaulle, charlemagne

romans: julius, augustus, caligula, cato, romulus

greeks: solon, draco, pericles, agammemnon

russians: vi lenin, stalin, catherine, peter, rasputin

chinese: shih huang ti, sun yat-sen, any tang emperor, deng xiaopeng

japanese: yoritomo minomato, koizumi

indians: nehru

persians: ayatollah khomeni, darius

babylonians: gilgamesh

egyptians: anwar sadat, ptolemy

zulus: uhh....

aztecs: pancho villa, morelos, zapata

iroquois: ....

germans: frederick II, wilhelm, that one bad person

	24-10-2001 12:41									#3
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Americans= Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, McArthy, Bill Clinton

Aztecs= Montezuma I, Montezuma II, Ahuizotl, Cutlahuac, Guatemotzin

Babylonians= Hammurabi, Sargon the Great, Gilgamesh, Nebuchadnezzar I, Nebuchadnezzar II, Sennacherib

British= William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionhearted, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Victoria, Churchill

Chinese= Mao Tse Tung, Shi Huangdi, Gao Zu, Liu Bang, Wang Mang, Chou Huangking

Egyptians= Ramesses II, Seti I, Thutmose III, Cleopatra VII, Ptolemy I Soter, Hor-Aha, Djoser, Huni, Khufu, Cheops, Khasakhemy, Menes, Narmer

French= Joan of Arc, Cardinal Richeleiu, Mitterand, De Gualle, Louis XIV, Louis XI, Louis XII, Napoleon Boneparte I, Henry III

Germans= Bismark, the evil scourge of god who invaded Poland and started a world war, William I, William II

Greeks= Lycurgus, Philip II (Macedonian), Philip V (Macedonian), Agamemnon, Minos, Priam, Epaminondas, Epimanidond, Draco

Indians= Nehro, Asoka, Shah Jahan, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Mahatma Ghandi, Indiri Ghandi, Babur, Chandragupta II

Iroqouis (representing Native Americans)= Sitting Bull, Wovoka, Red Cloud, Wyandot

Japanese= Himiko, Jimmu, Yorimoto, Minamoto, Hirohito, Tokugawa, Koizumi, Suiko, Tenji

Persians= Cyrus the Great, Durius the Great, Artaxerxes, Ayatollah Khomeni

Romans= Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Suberbus, Ceasar, Augustus, Caligula, Hadrian, Trajan, Cato

Russians= Catherine the Great, Peter the Great, Stalin, Lenin, Ivan the Terrible, Vladimir the Great

Zulus= Shaka, Shakala, Dingiswayo, Dingane

	24-10-2001 21:53									#4
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IMO there could well be more options
for leader names. Those you have posted
are good alternatives, so I don't add anything.
At least Mong's list was ready to be used.

	24-10-2001 23:13									#5
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Germans- Kaiser Wilhelm, Frederick Barbarossa
Americans- Alexander Hamilton. (A necessity), Thomas Jefferson

	24-10-2001 23:36									#6
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I don't think Nehru would make sense as a head of state for India. True, he was influential in helping to end the British Raj but he also lead Pakistan (and Bangladesh's) succession from the Republic. Great leaders don't partition their country when they don't get their way.

	25-10-2001 01:31									#7
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Thomas Jefferson.

	25-10-2001 01:53									#8
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Romans:Pompeius, Marius, Sulla, Constantine the Great, Diocletian.

French: Bertrand du Guesclin. (bet you don't know this one )

quote: Djoser, Huni, Khufu, Cheops

Khufu and Cheops are the same person.

Egyptians: Choefroe (Chefren).

	25-10-2001 02:11									#9
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quote: Chinese= Mao Tse Tung, Shi Huangdi, Gao Zu, Liu Bang, Wang Mang, Chou Huangking

Mmmm... Gao Zu and Liu Bang are the same person. Gao Zu's the 'ceremonial name', Liu Bang's the real name.
And I noticed that your entire list (except Mao) is taken from a narrow window of 230BC-1AD.., that's just two dynasties, the Qin and Han... why not from other eras?
And who the heck is Chou Huangking?

Anyway, here's a quick list of possible leaders:
Shi Huangdi, Liu Bang, Cao Cao, Li Shimin, Wu Zetian, Tang Minghuang (aka Li Longji), Zhao Kuangyin, Zhu Yuanzhang, Kangxi, Qianlong, Sun Yat-sen, Mao, Deng Xiaoping

EDIT: corrected the name of Tang Minghuang

	25-10-2001 03:10									#10
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It's a good idea, here are some of my choices:

Brits: Wellington, Nelson, Marlborough, The Black Prince.

French: Napoleon, Vauban, Condé, Turenne.

Germans: Barbarossa...

Greeks: Leonidas...

Romans: Sulla, Marius, Trajan, Constantine.


Edited: I made a mistake!

	25-10-2001 05:17									#11
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Iroquois: Dekanawidah, Canaqueese, Lewis Cook, Joseph Brant, Cornplanter, Sagoyewatha

However, Firaxis already mentioned Tecumseh although he was Shawnee, not Iroquois. I expect Pontiac (Ottawa) to pop up as well.


Iroquois chiefs reading wampum belts, Ontario 1870


Chief Joseph Brant Memorial, Brantford, Ontario 1886

Last edited by Ribannah on 25-10-2001 at 05:52

	25-10-2001 06:45									#12
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I surely hope they do not inlude Pontiac. Especially considering that the Iroquois hated the Ottawa indians... It would be better to include an Algonquin leader!

	25-10-2001 07:37									#13
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LEts put Ronald Reagan on the list for Americans!

	25-10-2001 08:12									#14
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About Japan, I still don't understand how the hell Emperor Meiji Mutsuhito passes so unhindered in the civ series and even in this thread.

	25-10-2001 08:15									#15
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Also, I'd rather see some more PMs as British leaders... guys like Salisbury, Gladstone and Disraeli. And Cromwell as well for chrissake.

	25-10-2001 12:41									#16
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Americans= Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, McArthy, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan

Aztecs= Montezuma I, Montezuma II, Ahuizotl, Cutlahuac, Guatemotzin

Babylonians= Hammurabi, Sargon the Great, Gilgamesh, Nebuchadnezzar I, Nebuchadnezzar II, Sennacherib, Amel-Marduk (in the bible the evil Merodach), Nabopolassar

Chinese= Mao Tse Tung, Shi Huangdi, Liu Bang, Cao Cao, Li Shimin, Wu Zetian, Tang Taizong (aka Li Longji), Zhao Kuangyin, Zhu Yuanzhang, Kangxi, Qianlong, Sun Yat-sen, Deng Xiaoping

Egyptians= RAMESSES II, Seti I, Thutmose III, CLEOPARTA VII, PTOLEMY I SOTER, Hor-Aha, DJOSER, Huni, KHUFU (Cheops), Khasakhemy, Menes, NARMER, Pepy I, Pepy II, Thutmose V, AHKETON, Nefertiti, Psamtik I, Ramesses III - Ramesses XII, Ptolemy VII, Khafre (Chephren), AMENEMHET I AHMOSE I, HAPSHEPSUT, TUTANKHAMEN
(Names in capitals are most famous or important than the rest, eg. Hapshepsut and Cleopatra VII were the only two anceint Egyptian pharoahs to be women, and they both reigned very well)

English= William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionhearted, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Victoria, Churchill, Oliver Cromwell, Salisbury, Gladstone, Disraeli, Wellington, Nelson, Marlborough

French= Joan of Arc, Cardinal Richeleiu, Mitterand, De Gualle, Louis XIV, Louis XI, Louis XII, Napoleon Boneparte I, Henry III, Vauban, Condé, Turenne, Hugh Capet, Louis VI the Fat, Blanche, Charles VII, Anne, Catherine de Demici,

Germans= Bismark, the evil scourge of god who invaded Poland and started a world war, William I, William II, President Hindenburg, Barbarossa

Greeks= Lycurgus, Philip II (Macedonian), Philip V (Macedonian), Agamemnon, Minos, Priam, Epaminondas, Epimanidond, Draco, Leonidus, Dionysius

Indians= Asoka, Shah Jahan, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Mahatma Ghandi, Indiri Ghandi, Babur, Chandragupta II

Iroqouis (representing Native Americans)= Sitting Bull, Wovoka, Red Cloud, Wyandot, Dekanawidah, Canaqueese, Lewis Cook, Joseph Brant, Cornplanter, Sagoyewatha, Tecumseh, Pontiac

Japanese= Himiko, Jimmu, Yorimoto, Minamoto, Hirohito, Tokugawa, Koizumi, Suiko, Tenji, Meiji Mutsuhito

Persians= Cyrus the Great, Durius the Great, Artaxerxes, Ayatollah Khomeni, Achaemenes, Cambyses II, Xerxes I, Adashir I, Yazdegerd I, Khosrau I, Khosrau II

Romans= Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Suberbus, Ceasar, Augustus, Caligula, Hadrian, Trajan, Cato, Sulla, Marius, Constantine, Pompey, Scipio Africans the Elder, Scipio Africanus the Younger, Diocletan

Russians= Catherine the Great, Peter the Great, Stalin, Lenin, Ivan the Terrible, Vladimir the Great

Zulus= Shaka, Shakala, Dingiswayo, Dingane, Jorno Kenyatta (a Kikiyu, but fought for the Bantu peoples rights in South Africa)

	25-10-2001 12:41									#17
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Americans= Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, McArthy, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan

Aztecs= Montezuma I, Montezuma II, Ahuizotl, Cutlahuac, Guatemotzin

Babylonians= Hammurabi, Sargon the Great, Gilgamesh, Nebuchadnezzar I, Nebuchadnezzar II, Sennacherib, Amel-Marduk (in the bible the evil Merodach), Nabopolassar

Chinese= Mao Tse Tung, Shi Huangdi, Liu Bang, Cao Cao, Li Shimin, Wu Zetian, Tang Taizong (aka Li Longji), Zhao Kuangyin, Zhu Yuanzhang, Kangxi, Qianlong, Sun Yat-sen, Deng Xiaoping

Egyptians= RAMESSES II, Seti I, Thutmose III, CLEOPARTA VII, PTOLEMY I SOTER, Hor-Aha, DJOSER, Huni, KHUFU (Cheops), Khasakhemy, Menes, NARMER, Pepy I, Pepy II, Thutmose V, AHKETON, Nefertiti, Psamtik I, Ramesses III - Ramesses XII, Ptolemy VII, Khafre (Chephren), AMENEMHET I AHMOSE I, HAPSHEPSUT, TUTANKHAMEN
(Names in capitals are most famous or important than the rest, eg. Hapshepsut and Cleopatra VII were the only two anceint Egyptian pharoahs to be women, and they both reigned very well)

English= William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionhearted, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, Victoria, Churchill, Oliver Cromwell, Salisbury, Gladstone, Disraeli, Wellington, Nelson, Marlborough

French= Joan of Arc, Cardinal Richeleiu, Mitterand, De Gualle, Louis XIV, Louis XI, Louis XII, Napoleon Boneparte I, Henry III, Vauban, Condé, Turenne, Hugh Capet, Louis VI the Fat, Blanche, Charles VII, Anne, Catherine de Demici,

Germans= Bismark, the evil scourge of god who invaded Poland and started a world war, William I, William II, President Hindenburg, Barbarossa

Greeks= Lycurgus, Philip II (Macedonian), Philip V (Macedonian), Agamemnon, Minos, Priam, Epaminondas, Epimanidond, Draco, Leonidus, Dionysius

Indians= Asoka, Shah Jahan, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Mahatma Ghandi, Indiri Ghandi, Babur, Chandragupta II

Iroqouis (representing Native Americans)= Sitting Bull, Wovoka, Red Cloud, Wyandot, Dekanawidah, Canaqueese, Lewis Cook, Joseph Brant, Cornplanter, Sagoyewatha, Tecumseh, Pontiac

Japanese= Himiko, Jimmu, Yorimoto, Minamoto, Hirohito, Tokugawa, Koizumi, Suiko, Tenji, Meiji Mutsuhito

Persians= Cyrus the Great, Durius the Great, Artaxerxes, Ayatollah Khomeni, Achaemenes, Cambyses II, Xerxes I, Adashir I, Yazdegerd I, Khosrau I, Khosrau II

Romans= Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Suberbus, Ceasar, Augustus, Caligula, Hadrian, Trajan, Cato, Sulla, Marius, Constantine, Pompey, Scipio Africans the Elder, Scipio Africanus the Younger, Diocletan

Russians= Catherine the Great, Peter the Great, Stalin, Lenin, Ivan the Terrible, Vladimir the Great

Zulus= Shaka, Shakala, Dingiswayo, Dingane, Jorno Kenyatta (a Kikiyu, but fought for the Bantu peoples rights in South Africa)

	25-10-2001 18:20									#18
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I think the Great Leaders from each civ will be more military leaders than heads-of-state. So I wouldn't expect to see Kaiser Wilhelm and Bill Clinton, but rather Hindenburg and Patton.

Sure, in some cases the heads-of-state and military leaders are the same, though. But I doubt they will use a currect Civ3 ruler (Elizabeth, Abe, etc.) as one of the "Great Leaders" you get.

One interesting idea for perhaps future implementation would be varying what certain Great Leaders can do. For instance (Using American examples), while Patton would do the standard Army/Wonder thing, you could have a great Economic Leader like Rockefeller show up and when used in a city would give it a permanent income bonus. Or a Carnegie would give it a permanent industrial production bonus. Or an Elvis would give it a permanent extra happy citizen!

Perhaps this would unbalance the game too much, but it seems like an interesting idea to me...

Cheers.

	25-10-2001 18:37									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think the Great Leaders from each civ will be more military leaders than heads-of-state. So I wouldn't expect to see Kaiser Wilhelm and Bill Clinton, but rather Hindenburg and Patton.

I wouldn't like that. It would make the civs to militaristic. You should have some military leaders, but only generals don't make a civilization large (at least in real life they don't ).

	25-10-2001 18:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Fresno I wouldn't like that. It would make the civs to militaristic. You should have some military leaders, but only generals don't make a civilization large (at least in real life they don't ).

Well, they did back in ancient times. Not today, though, true. But since the Great leaders are essentially military units in their function and are promoted from military units, my hunch is they will be military figures.

	25-10-2001 21:05									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well, they did back in ancient times. Not today, though, true. But since the Great leaders are essentially military units in their function and are promoted from military units, my hunch is they will be military figures.

I agree with Boris, it seems strange to have Henry VIII serve as a military leader under Elizabeth - you would have to be carefull that he didn't make a claim for the throne.
Of course you could choose other great leaders than military ones it's just that there aren't many before the modern era.

I would like too remove some of previous choices: Barbarossa, Trajan and Constantine.
Not Napoleon though for he was a great general before he became ruler, and in my empire he will remain general. But all the leaders who only became military leaders because they were head of state should be removed.

	25-10-2001 22:36									#22
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For Aztecs, both Quatemoc and Quitlauac must be in! Montezuma II is already their leader, so hardly.

	25-10-2001 22:56									#23
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William Pitt for the English.

	26-10-2001 00:16									#24
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quote: Originally posted by brandon749 LEts put Ronald Reagan on the list for Americans!

Let's not and say we did. :-)

	26-10-2001 00:45									#25
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Great List.

1 note - Civ3 website states the Iroquois as "the term for any member of the Five (later, Six) Nations composed of several Native American tribes speaking a language of the Iroquoian family: the Cayuga, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Seneca, and Tuscarora (after 1722)." Sitting Bull & Red Cloud were from the Sioux tribe. Wovoka was from the Paiute tribe. Pontiac was from the Ottawa tribe. I am not as familiar with Wyandot & Lewis Cook. The others listed I think are ideal Iroquois leaders.

And if some feel Civ3 seems to be from a more American view, it seems likely the Sioux civilization will return... for which Sitting Bull & Red Cloud might be better reserved for. I suppose drafting them for the Iroquois in the meantime might work... up to you. But they are not as ideal Iroquois leaders as some of the others listed. On another note, I doubt a Paiute or Ottawa civilization will be created, so drafting Wovoka & Pontiac for the Iroquois is also a good question.

PS.
Other famous Native American Leaders:
Geronimo - Apache
Crazy Horse - Sioux
Gall - Sioux
Oskanondonha - Iroquois

	26-10-2001 00:58									#26
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quote: Crazy Horse - Sioux

Damn that Canuck for making me think (for even the shortest of moments) that you had misspelt the name of the historical character.

	26-10-2001 01:23									#27
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Mongoloid:

Can you change 'Tang Taizong aka Li Longji' to 'Tang Minghuang aka Li Longji?'

thanks.

	26-10-2001 03:09									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Oskanondonha - Iroquois

Oskanondonha is better known as Skenandoah (the White Man's Friend).
Two more Iroquois chiefs: Tiyanoga (King Hendrick) and Canassatego, who both influenced the 'Founding Fathers' of the Americans.

http://tuscaroras.com/graydeer/influenc/page3.htm

quote: Tiyanoga's relationship with Johnson was so influential and beneficial to the alliance with the Haudenosaunee and English; and his heroism, philosophy, military, and political contributions at the Albany Congress was so important, it has been said that Tiyanoga (Hendrick) "should be considered one of the founders of the United States." ... It was during the 1744 Treaty Council that Canassatego, dismayed by the disorganization of the English colonists, suggested that the colonist unite on a Haudenosaunee model. Canassatego said to the colonial commissioners: Our wise forefathers established union and amity between the Five Nations. This has made us formidable. This has given us great weight and authority with our neighboring Nations. We are a powerful Confederacy and by your observing the same methods our wise forefathers have taken you will acquire much strength and power; therefore, whatever befalls you, do not fall out with one another.

	26-10-2001 11:38									#29
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YET ANOTHER UPDATED LIST

Americans= Abraham Lincoln*, George Washington, McArthy, Bill Clinton

Aztecs= Montezuma I, Montezuma II*, Ahuizotl, Cutlahuac, Guatemotzin, Quatemoc, Quitlauac

Babylonians= Hammurabi*, Sargon the Great, Gilgamesh, Nebuchadnezzar I, Nebuchadnezzar II, Sennacherib, Amel-Marduk (in the bible the evil Merodach), Nabopolassar

Chinese= Mao Tse Tung*, Shi Huangdi, Liu Bang, Cao Cao, Li Shimin, Wu Zetian, Tang Minghuang (aka Li Longji), Zhao Kuangyin, Zhu Yuanzhang, Kangxi, Qianlong, Sun Yat-sen, Deng Xiaoping

Egyptians= RAMESSES II, Seti I, Thutmose III, CLEOPARTA VII*, PTOLEMY I SOTER, Hor-Aha, DJOSER, Huni, KHUFU (Cheops), Khasakhemy, Menes, NARMER, Pepy I, Pepy II, Thutmose V, AHKETON, Nefertiti, Psamtik I, Ramesses III - Ramesses XII, Ptolemy VII, Khafre (Chephren), AMENEMHET I AHMOSE I, HAPSHEPSUT, TUTANKHAMEN
(Names in capitals are most famous or important than the rest, eg. Hapshepsut and Cleopatra VII were the only two anceint Egyptian pharoahs to be women, and they both reigned very well)

English= William the Conqueror, Richard the Lionhearted, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I*, Victoria, Churchill, Oliver Cromwell, Salisbury, Gladstone, Disraeli, Wellington, Nelson, Marlborough, William Pitt

French= Joan of Arc*, Cardinal Richeleiu, Mitterand, De Gualle, Louis XIV, Louis XI, Louis XII, Napoleon Boneparte I, Henry III, Vauban, Condé, Turenne, Hugh Capet, Louis VI the Fat, Blanche, Charles VII, Anne, Catherine de Demici,

Germans= Bismark*, the evil scourge of god who invaded Poland and started a world war, William I, William II, President Hindenburg, Barbarossa

Greeks= Lycurgus, Philip II (Macedonian), Philip V (Macedonian), Agamemnon, Minos, Priam, Epaminondas, Epimanidond, Draco, Leonidus, Dionysius, Alexander the Great (Macedonian)*

Indians= Asoka, Shah Jahan, Akbar, Aurangzeb, Mahatma Ghandi*, Indiri Ghandi, Babur, Chandragupta II

Iroqouis (representing ALL Native Americans)= Sitting Bull, Wovoka, Red Cloud, Wyandot, Dekanawidah, Canaqueese, Lewis Cook, Joseph Brant, Cornplanter, Sagoyewatha, Tecumseh, Pontiac, Senandoah (Oskanondonha), Tiyanoga (King Hendrick), Canassatego, Crazy Horse, Geronimo, Gall, Hiawatha*

Japanese= Himiko, Jimmu, Yorimoto, Minamoto, Hirohito, Tokugawa, Koizumi, Suiko, Tenji, Meiji Mutsuhito

Persians= Cyrus the Great, Durius the Great*, Artaxerxes, Ayatollah Khomeni, Achaemenes, Cambyses II, Xerxes I, Adashir I, Yazdegerd I, Khosrau I, Khosrau II

Romans= Ancus Marcius, Lucius Tarquinius Suberbus, Ceasar*, Augustus, Caligula, Hadrian, Trajan, Cato, Sulla, Marius, Constantine, Pompey, Scipio Africans the Elder, Scipio Africanus the Younger, Diocletan

Russians= Catherine the Great*, Peter the Great, Stalin, Lenin, Ivan the Terrible, Vladimir the Great

Zulus= Shaka*, Shakala, Dingiswayo, Dingane, Jorno Kenyatta (a Kikiyu, but fought for the Bantu peoples rights in South Africa)


The names with an * after their name is the civs ruler. Great list for the Iroquois (representing ALL native American tribes, including the Ottowa and Sioux), the Romans, Egyptians, English, French and Greeks. Any ideas for the others?

	26-10-2001 19:02									#30
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William the fagging conqueror?

He conquered england... The only thing he did of note while actually king was to commission the doomsday book, so he could tax the pants of the peasnats oh, and united the whole of england, yadda yadda, grumble, grumble

Richard the Lionheart - no "ed" neccessary

Henry VIII - Well known simply becasue he had 6 wives. Did little, other than eat.

Elizabeth I* - Bye Bye Spanish Armada

Victoria - Good one

Churchill - Good one

Oliver Cromwell - Arsehole. Unspectacular, except he has been the only non-regal head-of-state for quite some time.

Salisbury - who?
Gladstone - same time as Victoria
Disraeli - ditto. Clever bloke though
Wellington - Great leader more than ruler...
Nelson - Sir Horatio Admiral Lord Nelson. The man.
Marlborough - um...
William Pitt - which one? Elder or younger? neither had a great impact afaik.

Additionally - Alfred the Great, Lloyd-George/Chamberlain (ww1/2 PMs) for scenarios