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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:15
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First, the credit for finding this article goes to Anatolia who found the article and talked about it a bit here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=30290. But since the title of his thread is about the release date in Korea, I thought people might miss this. (Hope you don't mind, Anatolia!  ) And while I am by no means an expert translator, I found the following parts to be VERY interesting for two reasons:
1) You can see how much a history game matters to a people who have gotten the short end of the stick in history books for the past 100 years and;
2) This guy gives the most info on AI yet from ANY review I have seen.
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The most elaborate change in ver. 1.0 is certainly in diplomacy. In Civ. 3, 16 civilizations make their appearance. From the most famous Romans to the Japanese (why they were put in, I have no idea), nearly all the great ancient civilizations are included. While a Starcraft master can beat 7 computer opponents, it is a question whether such a thing is possible in Civ3. This is because the AI is no joke. |
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But no matter how friendly I tried to be, eventually you have to go to war. In the early stages, you can keep diplomatic relations even. But as time goes by, differences appear in the relationships between countries and the requests become unreasonable. You can refuse kindly about two times, but that, too, has its limits. Eventually diplomacy fails and you are thrown into battle. |
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Once, this thing happened: About the middle of the game, suddenly France requested an alliance. It was no simple alliance as I was now expected to attack Persia. At the time, Persia and I had no relations whatsoever. As the battle then looked bad for Persia, I happily agreed. Soon I entered the battle against Persia. But Persia wasn't attacking France at all...only me! Now I was getting nervous when suddenly France cut its alliance with me and established peace with Persia, hitting me like a slap in the head. If that's not cause to wonder at the AI, it was a moment when my body nearly fell over in betrayal. |
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Some worries I had as I played Civ3 are the problems of cultural distortion and unit balance. Of course I wasn't pleased to see Japan appear as an ancient civilization, but I was more worried that "Wouldn't this distort history?" Knowing that games are particularly popular among students, it is possible for them to learn the wrong version of history this way. Seriously, there are so many students in the United States who think that The History of the Three Kingdoms is about Japan. This is because KOEI made the game and naturally students would make that assumption. There are fans of this masterpiece series around the world, so we must make sure to remove such errors. And I hope that the unit imbalances from previous Civs will be solved. The key point being that Middle Age units weren't such a problem but consider the 20th century missiles and tanks and the problems of balance there. |
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Rosacrux
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In a Galaxy far, far away...
Oct 2001
time: 05:15
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I am trying to understand historical duels and among those I have looked over is the famous Korea/Japan thing. Before the numerous wars, invasions etc. etc. the whole thing seems to date back - as previously mentioned - to the beginning of Japan - not the Japanese civilization, that came later and was pretty distinct from the Korean or the Chinese (allthough both Korea and Japan have learned a great deal from their contacts with China).
Here is some data on the establishment of the first Korean settlers (kind of, anyway) in Japan:
quote:
Before the 200s BCE Japan was very sparsely populated with people who were still using stone tools and living by hunting, fishing and gathering food that grew wild. Then, in 200s, on Japan’s major southern island, Kyushu, a culture with iron, bronze, tool making and wet-rice agriculture appeared. The new culture is believed to have come with migrants, perhaps from Korea -- the shortest distance from the Asian mainland, where such ways of living already existed.
People with the new culture, called Yayoi-Japanese, expanded against native people, and around the time of Jesus they reached the Kanto plain, where Tokyo would one day be. They raised horses and cows, hunted and fished, and grew rice where they could. From their contacts with the Asian mainland they acquired the potter's wheel, and they improved their kiln techniques. From China and Korea they imported coins, bronze mirrors, bracelets and beads, iron and bronze knives and swords. They began smelting their own iron, making swords, saws, nails and clamps.
With a greater supply of food, the population of the Yayoi-Japanese grew rapidly. They were perhaps healthier than other peoples in Japan, and they continued to spread and to displace native peoples. By the year 100 (in the Common Era) the agricultural Japanese had pushed into northeastern Honshu. They pushed against and absorbed those called Ainu, who are believed to have lived more in the northern half of -- a people with blue eyes and lighter skins, and with more hair than most Asians, perhaps accounting for the greater hairiness of today's Japanese.
Soon a highway system facilitated movement of people and goods, and the Yayoi-Japanese developed a fleet of ships that moved goods up and down Japan's coast and between Japan and the Asian continent. Closer ties between Japan and Korea developed. Literate Koreans and Koreans with other skills were in great demand in Japan, and such Koreans who came to Japan were given noble rank. The Yayoi-Japanese imported iron from Korea, with which they made plows, hoes, sickles, axes, adzes and chisels.
(...) Queen Jingo and her son, Ojin, send a military expedition to Korea. Gentle winds and god-like fish are said to have helped their armada cross the sea to Korea, so that no oars had to be used. Then, according to legend, a vast tidal wave carried the fleet inland, into the kingdom of Silla. The surprised and terrified Koreans are said to have surrendered at once and to have promised to pay homage and tribute to Queen Jingo until the sun rose in the west, rivers flowed backwards and stones turned into stars.
One of the more successful ruling families was the Yamato. The Yamato family dominated the agriculturally productive plain near what are now the cities of Osaka and Kyoto. As elsewhere in the world of civilization and empire, those rulers whom the Yamato conquered remained as local lords and paid tribute to the Yamato ruler. The local lords were watched by Yamato subordinates territorial administrators, technical experts and scribes. A hierarchy of authority had developed, with the local lords remaining proud of their family and conscious of their own powers and potential powers.
The Yamato rulers called themselves Tenno, or heavenly ruler, and the Yamato family believed that they were directly descended from Jimmu and the gods and that they ruled by divine right. The Yamato spread their rule northward onto the Kanto plain and to most other areas populated by the Yayoi-Japanese.
During the 300s, the Yamato spread their rule to the southern coast of Korea, to an enclave they called Mimana. Soon the Korean kingdoms of Paekche and Silla were paying the Yamato tribute. |
The exempts in bold show the earlier (fictional or historical) conflicts between the two nations. I am sure Yin could come up with something more accurate. This data goes only to 500 AD - if someone wants more for later periods in the Japan-Korea relations, just ask.
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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by yin26
Well, in case you guys missed my Korea thread earlier, here it is: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=25219 Be warned, it goes VERY off-topic and all over the place at points. Pay attention to the second page where I show you images of what the Japanese did to the Koreans.
As for Korean-Japanese relations, I think you can see they were tense (and still are). What is not in dispute, however, is that Korea seeded Japan. Does this mean Korea should be in Civ3 before Japan? Well, I think it's only part of the story...but an important one.
Anyway, as for the AI described above: If what we have is basically SMAC and Civ2 AI (in diplomacy at least), there will be MAJOR TWEAKING that will have to take place...to put it kindly. |
Good post about Korea and Japan Yin. 
The curious thing is that I've seen these discussions before about other nations as well (e.a Spain but no Portugal, no vikings in Civ3, Americans not a historic civ etc...), even back in the usenet days this would pop up from time to time. There's something universal about these discussions.
As for the AI. It sound very Civ2'esque to me! 
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GoofyBoy
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The whole Japan/Korea thing boils down to "My Kung-Fu is better than your Kung-Fu".
Japan is a major powerhouse today, just like the Greeks or Romans were in ancient history. Unless I'm mistaken, Korea wasn't a world (Western-centric?) powerhouse in the past.
But it is a shame that they didn't include Korea just because they are big computer gamers. Maybe someone could add them with the editor.
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Green Giant
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That worries me a bit . I hope the having the AI "good" doesn't mean it screws you over at every turn.
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zoom200
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quote:
Originally posted by GoofyBoy
The whole Japan/Korea thing boils down to "My Kung-Fu is better than your Kung-Fu".
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Heheh...japan vs korea would be Karate Vs TaeKwando....
but seriously...when the west thinks of asia...do they only think of kungfu...
If that is the case...it would be so cool lying to pple in North America and Europe abt asia...
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Jason Beaudoin
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Canada
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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What's amazing to me is to see that the reviewer couldn't keep politics out of the article. Very unprofessional.
I'm a little worried about what the AI did in that scenario because I certainly wouldn't want a good friend of mine to do that kind of crap.
Anyway, I wonder if that would happen if two countries made a "mutual protection pact". Would the other country make peace without you? Would that not be breaking the treaty?
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24-10-2001 14:22
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