24-10-2001 17:38									#1
	All Questions About Trade Answered Support Apolyton

Civilopedia: Trade and Trade Routes

This screen, which I got from the "hidden screens at ign.com" thread, answers every question we've been discussing lately about trade. Specifically:

- Every domestic city connected by road/railroad to a city with a certain resource has access to that resource.
- You only need one of each resource for your whole civ - everything beyond the first is excess and can be traded.
- Both strategic and luxury resources may be traded.
- Foreign cities can be connected for trade in three ways: direct road/railroad connection, harbor in both cities and visible water route between the cities, or airport in both cities.
- For a water route, the route not only has to be visible, but you have to have the tech to traverse the route safely. Mapmaking, Navigation, and Magnetism are the 3 techs. So if the route goes through deep sea and you don't have Magnetism, it's not a valid route.
- Exceptions: a road/railroad connection does not count if it passes through enemy territory. A harbor connection does not count if either end is blockaded by enemy naval forces.

	24-10-2001 18:06									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: A harbor connection does not count if either end is blockaded by enemy naval forces.

That's COOL !!!!!

	24-10-2001 18:33									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Bad ass, now the question is if you physically blockade a port, does it have diplomatic consequences?

	24-10-2001 18:51									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I also wonder if air 'units' can blockad airports as well. I.E. will air cover prevent your enemy from 'flying' over you to get to a resource near an airport?

	24-10-2001 19:02									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: now the question is if you physically blockade a port, does it have diplomatic consequences?

read the quote again:

quote: A harbor connection does not count if either end is blockaded by enemy naval forces.

there aren't much diplomatic connections anymore with enemies I guess

	24-10-2001 21:25									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

However, you can be at peace and not have a right of passage. Would this count as a blockade? Also, maps show borders extending into ocean waters, if a trade route has to go through an ocean strait, but an enemy civ's territory includes that strait, yet there is no actual ship blocking the route, does this count?

	24-10-2001 22:09									#7
	Remove this text

Ok fine, so not every single question has been answered! However I think we now know all the major aspects of the trade system. The details, such as what exactly constitutes a blockade or whether a sea route can pass through enemy controlled waters, are relatively minor. Just think, by this time next week we'll know everything for sure.

	24-10-2001 22:14									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm just nit-picking. Although nuances, like my question about ocean straits will become important as more and more people look to not just enjoy the game, but master it.

	24-10-2001 22:21									#9
	Tired of ads?

Woo hoo! Blockades!

Economic warfare, here we come! This will end up figuring into strategy - if your enemy trades to get its raw material to build bad guys, and you can cut off the source... I like this element alot. Even if it is only a secondary factor, it really adds some color to the game.

	24-10-2001 23:20									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Great news!

At one time I was worried about gameplay-unbalance problems caused by getting ocean-based routes automatically without any effort (only coastal cities + foreign map-swaps), compared with the how relatively laboriously one must prepare in order to establish landbased trade-routes.

But according to that Civilopedia screenshot...

- both empires must have harbour-equipped coastal cities (only coastal cities not enough).
- At least one of two trading empires must have a visible & completely map-uncovered ocean-route in between.
- Neither harbour transit-city is blockaded by naval combat-units (requires a blockade-command, I guess).
- At least one of two trading empires must have map-making (for near coastal routes) and navigation and/or magnetism (for offshore ocean-routes).

I hope though that the burden is places upon the human player, in that sense that the AI-civs isnt over-anxious when it comes to establish trade-routes with you. Just like in Civ-2, they establish trade-routes mostly between each other. The human player shouldnt have it all on a silverplate for free - he should be forced to move out and explore to some degree, in order to uncovering his own potential foreign water-routes.

In Civ-2; that map-exporing and trade route-establishing was too labourish and repetitive. But for that sake they shouldnt through out the baby with the bathwater (like they did in SMAC). Some commersially inspired exploring & map-uncovering is only fun and challenging.

	25-10-2001 01:32									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well I think they made it pretty clear that trade outes cannot pass thur enemy waters when they said a road or rail trade route is not valid if it passes thru enemey territory's. It's safe to assume that a sea trade route will not be a able to pass thur a enemy waters either.

	25-10-2001 02:36									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

OK, you only need one supply of a resource for your civ, and any excess you can trade. I assume that this means that if you have two supplies you can trade it with one other civ -- in other words you would need three to trade with two other civs, four to trade with three other civs, and so on? I hope so. I will be disappointed if you can trade your single surplus resource with everyone.

	25-10-2001 03:25									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

When about rivers? When I have a city that's built next to a river, and that river flows either to the sea or another civ's city that happens to be on the same river, is that considered a valued water route? I'm assuming that I have the correct technology, explored a sea route to the other civilzation, that any coastal city have a harbor, and that there are no zone of control issues or that neither port is being blockaded.

	25-10-2001 03:53									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree rivers would make a great addition to the Trade rules, especially early on when youve not got the time and defences for a big road.
I'm sure rivers will work, otherwise how do you get trade across them before bridge building?
I'd like to see something like London which is on the coast and a river to transport goods down river and from the harbour to overseas.. to the (old) british empire in india for example.

I hope all this will help to make civs defend their borders properly, with lines of units on frontlines next to the Territory border line and around the edges to stop pillaging of roads and capturing resource colonies etc.
you'll also need ships to defend coastline traderoutes properly now also
but it would be nice to capture trade items from searoutes as well.. our english fleets captured a lot of spanish galleons laden with gold in the 16th century

	25-10-2001 03:58									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ralf, i remember you before wishing that exploration would figure into the trade routes, looks like you are right This is definately better than in SMAC, where you didnt even need to know where any foreign cities were.

	25-10-2001 07:32									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

so sitting outside a zulu port now has an added bonus.

	26-10-2001 03:20									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What wonder about is this:
Let's say there are several civilizations (well, obviously). Let's say my civilization has a certain resource. Let's say it is iron. Now, all the other civilizations are willing to pay me 10 lumps of gold (or pieces, or coins, or units, or whatever gold is measured in) per turn for my iron. Now, let's say I have found all the sources of iron in the world and control them. (also, I am so powerful, that the other civilization will never be able to take the iron from me by the means of war). So, what I am wondering about is, will the prices for iron go up then? Would the other civilizations be "willing" to pay me more for the iron, since there is no other way to get it?

In other words, are the prices the civilizations would pay for certain resources predefined, or are they dynamic, depending on the supply of the resource, which is more likely.

	26-10-2001 04:55									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Another question not answered...

Can one harbor connection trade all of your resources. I hope not... I hope that one harbor can only send and receive a limited number of resources.

	26-10-2001 06:26									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Another question not answered... Can one harbor connection trade all of your resources. I hope not... I hope that one harbor can only send and receive a limited number of resources.

What you are saying would be more realistic, but I doubt that's how they implemented it. I'd bet that one harbor is enough to trade everything, provided of course that it has an explored and traversable path to the harbors of the other civs.

	26-10-2001 06:43									#20
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by albiedamned What you are saying would be more realistic, but I doubt that's how they implemented it. I'd bet that one harbor is enough to trade everything, provided of course that it has an explored and traversable path to the harbors of the other civs.

I'll be fine however it turns out. But I don't think my suggestion would too difficult to implement.

But even if you only need one harbor, until the endgame at which point you have airports, if you only have that one harbor, that harbor will need to be able to "see" all of the other harbors you want to trade with. Which means that more than one harbor will be useful, especially considering naval blockades and the like.

	26-10-2001 06:48									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here is another question. Say A want to trade with B, but does not have direct trade root. However A has right of passage with C, and connected with C by road. However C is connected to B not by road, but say, through airport. In this case can A send goods to C by road and then to B by airport?

	26-10-2001 06:55									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MxM Here is another question. Say A want to trade with B, but does not have direct trade root. However A has right of passage with C, and connected with C by road. However C is connected to B not by road, but say, through airport. In this case can A send goods to C by road and then to B by airport?

If a train is heading east...

I think that only direct trade routes would be allowed in Civ III. I don't think the AI could handle it that way. You could indirectly do it by finding out that B wants say, horses, and that C wants iron. You give C both horses and iron for something else, and C trades the horses to B for something else. But I think that would be difficult to engineer.

That's one way where MP wins out over SP. The ability to communicate ideas and agreements.

	26-10-2001 08:04									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Lorizael I'll be fine however it turns out. But I don't think my suggestion would too difficult to implement. But even if you only need one harbor, until the endgame at which point you have airports, if you only have that one harbor, that harbor will need to be able to "see" all of the other harbors you want to trade with. Which means that more than one harbor will be useful, especially considering naval blockades and the like.

Agreed. Although you probably only need one harbor which can "see" your trading partners, it would obviously be wise to build multiple harbors. Plus if it has the same effect as in Civ2 of increasing the food from sea squares, then you'll probably want to build multiple harbors anyway.