25-10-2001 06:46									#1
	Did they take the element of risk out researching techs in Civ3? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

In the Avault thread, we got off on a tangent when I brought the concern that Civ3 will force me research all/most? techs before I can "go" to the next age. I had thought with fewer techs, the decision of which one to research next would become more critical, thus affecting strategic gameplay. But it now sounds like that I got to research all/most? of the techs in the ancient age (for example) before I can get the ones that I want in the middle age. I mean, I don't care about historical accuracy of having an advance tech before I have an ancient one because it is all an abstract element anyway.

Remember the Warrior-Feudalism-Chivalry-Leadership line in Civ2? That was a strategic decision based on whether you were persuing a bloodlust or AC win. Now it seems it doesn't matter what you have to research next or what path to aim for because you have to get them all. Do you think that's a wise design decision? I love the idea of skipping or ignoring a tech (or several of them) because such a gameplay decision can have its advantages and disadvantages. Now it appears they are taking that element of risk out of our hands. Does this make sense at all?

	25-10-2001 06:49									#2
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I suppose it's one way to keep the player and AI closer in ability? Perhaps this is an SP method to keep things interesting?

	25-10-2001 07:18									#3
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I suppose it's one way to keep the player and AI closer in ability? Perhaps this is an SP method to keep things interesting?

My thoughts exactly. By forcing the player to go back and pursue some non-military techs that could be skipped in Civ2, it allows the AI to remain on par with the human militarily. So even if the AI isn't all that much improved, it comes off looking better because the human is limited in tech research selection.

This doesn't bother me.

	25-10-2001 07:23									#4
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It should be duly noted too that you don't need research the entire tech tree to get to the next age. For example, Communism is available in the industrial age, but yet you don't *NEED* Communism to advance to the modern era.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that this tree is less flexible than the Civ2 tree until we've actually gotten a full copy of the tree with all the "required technologies" tagged.

	25-10-2001 07:41									#5
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I think they have taken a page out of Age of Empires here, with distinct 'eras' that affect all and everything, from the look of your civilization to the techs you can learn.

I rather like the idea at first sight, but only thorough playtesting will tell if it´s a real improvement. I plan to do that ASAP.

	25-10-2001 08:22									#6
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Right now the era limits are appealing to me on game-abstraction grounds:

If the idea of individual techs is arbitrary, and if the knowledge and experience that they imply is much more complicated/interrelated than the game can represent through prerequisites, then I think that the era requirements are a good way of hedging towards realism.

There are obviously a lot of ways you could prevent a civ from overextending its technical reach, but this seems a pretty intuitive one.

	25-10-2001 08:54									#7
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Firaixs headquaters "Curses! Them apolytonians can get to Alpha Centauri by 1 AD. We can't. Lets make them have to research all techs so they can't fly so early."

	25-10-2001 12:07									#8
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I like it though- really does break up the eras much better.
Makes the tech tree more.. 'interesting' too.

	25-10-2001 12:16									#9
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As I re-think my previous post a bit...it ALSO means the comp will have to get all the requisite techs in order to advance, too. But where this might actually fall in the comp's favor is in the early game with streamlined build orders (at least until human players figure this out themselves) such that the comp can get ahead of you in the age race and, therefore, tech by mid-game ... giving you some kind of fight to reach the late stages.

Hard to say...

	25-10-2001 12:54									#10
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It's an intriguing idea & will probably have it's advantages & disadvantages. However, this really should be set up as an option which we can disable/enable. I suppose the editor might allow you the option to define the requirements for the Ages a little more, but would that be only for a map or would it work for any game?

	25-10-2001 14:21									#11
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Interesting thoughts. I guess they're trying to eliminate the "want-public-transport-better-research-the-wheel" scenario. That was a bit silly. This will likely feel more realistic.

I also wonder how this interacts with the new espionage. As I've heard, stealing a tech every turn is now virtually impossible.

	25-10-2001 14:55									#12
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It does make sense in terms of realism. Why could a player charge ahead with a particular research when other aspects of his nation are a couple of eras behind?

Yin,

What "streamlined building?"

	25-10-2001 16:22									#13
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I am going to enjoy the era restricted tech research. MORE REALISM MUHAHAHAHA

I really disliked skipping techs in eras because the game was too easy on deity.

	25-10-2001 16:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yin, What "streamlined building?"

Oh, sorry: There is probably a kind of optimized set of build orders for any given set of circumstances. Realizing that the guys at Firaxis have several hundred games under their belts, they could program an early-game AI that maximizes every turn better than a human player could ... at least until we learn the game well enough to at least match (and probably surpass at some point) that efficiency.

To help things a challenge, of course, Firaxis should add updated AI info in each patch that draws from the latest, greatest strategies being put out by top players. There WILL be optimized build order for given maps, given civs, given resources, etc., and if Firaxis were keen to do so, they could keep track of it and slowly develop a wicked AI over time.

	25-10-2001 17:32									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Interesting thoughts. I guess they're trying to eliminate the "want-public-transport-better-research-the-wheel" scenario. That was a bit silly. This will likely feel more realistic. I also wonder how this interacts with the new espionage. As I've heard, stealing a tech every turn is now virtually impossible.

I agree on both counts.

	25-10-2001 19:33									#16
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Great thoughts, guys, something I have to think about some more and of course, to see how it'll work in a week or two.

There is another side to the equation and that is what we expect out of playing a civ game. In all strategy games, there seems to be two extreme camps (and plenty in between). There are those that wants the game to be so hard that it becomes a challenge to lose and those that wants to win ALL of the time, even at a harder level. There have been games in which all I wanted to do was to win as quickly as possible at emperor/deity. I used every trick in the book to do so without cheating. There was nothing wrong with that because at that time, I was looking for a fun diversion for a weekend (just building barracks and sending out hordes of Knights).

So my point is that is perhaps should be an option (or I'm sure someone will figure out an edit) because I want the game to be so flexible that you can choose how you want to play without having it force you into a set way of playing.

	25-10-2001 21:16									#17
	Re: Did they take the element of risk out researching techs in Civ3? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark In the Avault thread, we got off on a tangent when I brought the concern that Civ3 will force me research all/most? techs before I can "go" to the next age. I had thought with fewer techs, the decision of which one to research next would become more critical, thus affecting strategic gameplay. But it now sounds like that I got to research all/most? of the techs in the ancient age (for example) before I can get the ones that I want in the middle age

I don't know how this matches up with what you're thinking as far as researching each eras' techs, but here it talks about not having to research anywhere near all of the techs in, at least, the Middle Ages. It says you can skip eight techs. I think that's a lot of techs to be able to skip.

I believe it's essential to be required to have more than just a cursory knowledge of each era to expect to be able to advance to the next. Reading the above link makes it obvious that a pick and choose strategy is still at least a somewhat viable option.

	25-10-2001 21:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark So my point is that is perhaps should be an option (or I'm sure someone will figure out an edit) because I want the game to be so flexible that you can choose how you want to play without having it force you into a set way of playing.

Unfortunately, it would take a long time to program a complex AI that would adapt to what the player is doing. And since Firaxis won't release any source code, don't look for something like that in a Sid Meier title. I'm working on an AI now, but since I am in school and not working for a game company, I'm not getting paid. And that means it will be about 2-3 years before I'll pitch it to a company.

	25-10-2001 22:28									#19
	Re: Re: Did they take the element of risk out researching techs in Civ3? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Colonel Kraken ... it talks about not having to research anywhere near all of the techs in, at least, the Middle Ages. It says you can skip eight techs. I think that's a lot of techs to be able to skip. I believe it's essential to be required to have more than just a cursory knowledge of each era to expect to be able to advance to the next. Reading the above link makes it obvious that a pick and choose strategy is still at least a somewhat viable option.

Wish you were right, Col seamonster, but all that's going on appears to be that some techs are "required," and some are not. In the Middle Ages, 8 are "optional." This is actually a disappointing change, since it returns to the 'history is inevitable' philosophy that Sid so successfully debunked by example in the earlier games. I think this is in there to overcome the success of the OCC (one city challenge) strategy which undermined the spirit of Sid's vision.

	26-10-2001 00:11									#20
	Re: Re: Re: Did they take the element of risk out researching techs in Civ3? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer Wish you were right, Col seamonster

Quite right: Kraken = seamonster. (I actually took the name from a unit in CtP II. I'm not very original ).

quote: but all that's going on appears to be that some techs are "required," and some are not.

Obviously, some techs must be required. You cannot have motorized transport before discovering the wheel. The fact that "some techs are 'required'" is an obvious extrapolation of history and reality and not merely

quote: the 'history is inevitable' philosophy

Perhaps I am not understanding your point entirely.

	26-10-2001 02:17									#21
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We'll have to see how it all plays out, but the idea of requiring certain techs to move on to the next era sounds like it would lead to interesting gameplay... especially if the non-required techs offer useful advantages.

Do I rush on into future eras or pick up something on the side?

Truth is, though, this is not that much different from the usual prerequisites for a tech. In order to begin any of the techs on the left hand side of the screen in an era, you need certain techs on the right hand side of the previous screen.

	26-10-2001 03:08									#22
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Breaking the game into eras is a very good idea if you spend a lot of time in each era. From what I've read about the strategies for eras, each era will almost be like a mini-game within the overall game. This way during the Middle Ages, you civ can be scientifically advanced, and in the Modern Age, you civ was very focused on military.

The whole, history is inevitable thing isn't always true. That's why I had an idea (not really my idea) for hard and soft pre-reqs.

Hard pre-reqs you need to get a certain advance whereas soft pre-reqs will help you get a tech easier, but are not required.

What I always disliked though was a Civilization that had Genetic Engineering before it had Gunpowder (not sure if this is an exageration). I just think that there is a certain level of intelligence needed to discover Genetic Engineering, and that you would have figured out saltpeter and the like by the time you figured out DNA.

	26-10-2001 04:06									#23
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I trust in firaxis. I think this will be ok.

	26-10-2001 04:34									#24
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quote: Originally posted by FireDragon I trust in firaxis. I think this will be ok.

Wow FireDragon, you're spamming all over the place. Wanna contribute anything useful to the board???

	26-10-2001 04:35									#25
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I like the idea of this because WHEN multiplayer comes out, I would like to be able to play more than just bloodlust or conquest type games.

Bloodlust can be fun, but if you make it too easy to pick only military techs, it becomes the only way to win against human players that don't think like AI.

The beauty of this game is not just killing, although that has its time and place.