25-10-2001 10:26									#1
	Lifting the "Fog of War" Tired of ads?

Has there been any mention of a technology, wonder, or unit which lifts the Fog of War for the known world?

I think in CTP the fog of war was lifted when space travel was researched (could be wrong here). It was really nice to see it disappear.

Anyone know?

	25-10-2001 10:37									#2
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Civ 2: Apollo Program = Reveals everything on the map (turns take forever)

Civ 2 didn't have fog of war btw.

	25-10-2001 10:52									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 Civ 2: Apollo Program = Reveals everything on the map (turns take forever) Civ 2 didn't have fog of war btw.

Yes, Civ2 didn't have the fog of war. You've reminded me of how Civ 2 worked, though. Perhaps Civ III will be similar, a (hopefully small) wonder will reveal the whole map and lift the fog of war.

	25-10-2001 10:57									#4
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Don't you think it will slow the game down?

	25-10-2001 11:01									#5
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Civ2 did have FOW. It was invisible (unseen terrain not darker) but you could not see what enemy units were up to.

	25-10-2001 11:02									#6
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Yeah, your right. Now i remember.

	25-10-2001 11:51									#7
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CTP2 had a globe-sat thingy which rasied the fog of war...
It was completely lagtastic.

	25-10-2001 11:59									#8
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I heard something about satellites being in CivIII- but I have no idea what they would do.

I might go double check the tech tree screens for this.

In SMAX, there were two things (besides units) that could enhance visual range: Sensor Towers (CivIII radar towers?) and Geo-synchronous Sattelites (also in CivIII?).

	25-10-2001 13:47									#9
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Yeah, the CTP had the GlobeSat wonder. Of course it was always beyond me why only one civ could build a surveilance satelite network. Makes sense that everyone could build satelites (like in SMAC). Hope its either in, or the flags are their ro put them in with the editor.

	25-10-2001 16:25									#10
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I dislike the lifting of fog of war because it isn't realistic at all. Look at Vietnam. Crap, just look at Afghanistan. All those million/billion dollar satelites are useless in the hills where the Taliban hide.

	25-10-2001 19:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by SoulAssassin I dislike the lifting of fog of war because it isn't realistic at all. Look at Vietnam. Crap, just look at Afghanistan. All those million/billion dollar satelites are useless in the hills where the Taliban hide.

But useful for larger troop movement. I think there should be a way to lift the fog in the late game.

	26-10-2001 03:05									#12
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Actually Civ2 DID have a fog of war, just an invisible one (once you moved away from the troops, and they moved, they disappeared.)

I could personally care less about a global FOW lifting at any point in the game, though I hope that if it does, I don't have to suffer through watching each enemy Mech. Inf. move 30 times back and forth through the same two railroad spaces...

PS SoulAssasin, love your signature... just saw them about 3 weeks ago right after the Sep.11 crap, and they played "Holy Wars" and then finished an encore with "Peace Sells." Dave made an executive decision to skip "Anarchy in the UK," which, in my eyes, was a brilliantly respectable decission.

	26-10-2001 03:15									#13
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quote: Originally posted by SoulAssassin I dislike the lifting of fog of war because it isn't realistic at all. Look at Vietnam. Crap, just look at Afghanistan. All those million/billion dollar satelites are useless in the hills where the Taliban hide.

As was said earlier it is used for troop movements.

And we can see all of the Taliban troops.

What we can't see are the Al-Qaeda forces. But those are like spies which, in Civ III, cannot be seen so yeah!

I think either the Apollo Program or Satelites will do something for FoW. I also plan to make a Spy Plane unit (if it doesn't exist) to help with FoW.

	26-10-2001 04:07									#14
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I wouldn't mind the fog of war being lifted permanently with satellites etc, it dosen't have to slow down things showing ever single unit movement.
I'd like it so I could see what the other civs are doing, watching their wars and just for fun basically.

but you ought to be able to reveal whole map with Cheats, so as long as that works, I can keep up my voyeuristic tendancies spying on the computers game :>

	26-10-2001 04:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by cassembler I could personally care less about a global FOW lifting at any point in the game, though I hope that if it does, I don't have to suffer through watching each enemy Mech. Inf. move 30 times back and forth through the same two railroad spaces...

It would be cool if you could choose the area you want to see. You would make a square in the specified area and next turn you would see the enemy's movements in that particular area. Of course that would be possible only after the discover of satellites

	26-10-2001 04:37									#16
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Neat idea Pggar but these satellites (if you have more than one... still don't know how it will work) are circling the globe for a year. They could see much more than one 100x100 mile area in a year.

Oh and AdmiralPJ, they took out cheating in Civ III. That's not exactly what my voyeuristic tendencies are focused upon anyway........

	26-10-2001 05:02									#17
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You could build each satelite in your cities then send them off into space. each satelite covers 10% of the globe. You can build a max of ten of them. They would be very expensive (like the cost of a mini wonder)

	26-10-2001 05:33									#18
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One of the first things I added to CtP was a satellite unit, with 10 movement points, the ability to sleep in space, and a vision range of 6

	26-10-2001 05:46									#19
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In CTP, wasnt movement in space *10 or something. So its actually has 100 mouvement points.

	26-10-2001 05:50									#20
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*20, so 200 mp, took a bloody age to take a turn

	26-10-2001 06:07									#21
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200 turns

	26-10-2001 06:21									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would prefer that starting from modern or even from industrial age, player is able to see the map without units. Realistically, the maps were very accurate in 19 century and probably even earlier, so you should be able to see city sizes, roads, terrain types etc, but not units . To see units you need some kind of satellite system.

	26-10-2001 06:25									#23
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ya. And partisans should not be able to be seen fro mthe air

	26-10-2001 06:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MxM I would prefer that starting from modern or even from industrial age, player is able to see the map without units. Realistically, the maps were very accurate in 19 century and probably even earlier, so you should be able to see city sizes, roads, terrain types etc, but not units . To see units you need some kind of satellite system.

Your maps would only be accurate in the 19th century if you had explored a lot and traded with people that traded, too. I'm sure there were civs in that time that did not have world maps.

	26-10-2001 06:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Your maps would only be accurate in the 19th century if you had explored a lot and traded with people that traded, too. I'm sure there were civs in that time that did not have world maps.

I am sure that you can easily buy map in other countries. All you need to do is to send one (!!!) person to London and buy modern atlas. Not a big deal for ANY country in 19 century.

	26-10-2001 06:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by MxM I am sure that you can easily buy map in other countries. All you need to do is to send one (!!!) person to London and buy modern atlas. Not a big deal for ANY country in 19 century.

But what if you were an Isolationistic civ?

What do you think trade is? Anyway, it's up to you to prevent forest... I mean, it's up to you in a game like Civ III to trade and explore, not some stupid tourists...

	26-10-2001 06:59									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael What do you think trade is? Anyway, it's up to you to prevent forest... I mean, it's up to you in a game like Civ III to trade and explore, not some stupid tourists...

So you think that there should be an option "send spy into London shop to buy atlas"? In this way you will "participate" yourself.

I think if you are allowed to steal technology, then buying a map should be a mission with 100% success probability. And because of this, I think it should be done automatically, as soon as you reach either industrial or modern age.

And even from gameplay point of view: I do not think it is fun to rediscover the city sizes and roads again and again and again … in XX century!

	26-10-2001 07:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MxM So you think that there should be an option "send spy into London shop to buy atlas"? In this way you will "participate" yourself. I think if you are allowed to steal technology, then buying a map should be a mission with 100% success probability. And because of this, I think it should be done automatically, as soon as you reach either industrial or modern age. And even from gameplay point of view: I do not think it is fun to rediscover the city sizes and roads again and again and again … in XX century!

Actually, stealing maps is one of the Espionage options...
It still a matter of how you play the game. You could have a strict government that says no leaving the country. Then once you reach industrial or modern, you wouldn't have a map.

But trading is an integral part of the game now so once you reach Industrial or Modern, I think you would have gotten a world map.

	26-10-2001 07:44									#29
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But I am speaking about necessity of constantly upgrading the map. I do not see reason keeping fog of war in modern time (except for the units).

	26-10-2001 07:49									#30
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If you're peaceful with a civ and have a right of passage, then you can keep the FoW away but placing units in their civ. If you're at war, you've been kicked out, you shouldn't know what's in there until you get close.