26-10-2001 08:20									#1
	Can Greeks build Hoplites from turn 1? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I know the Aztecs can build their UU, the Jaguar Warrior, from turn 1 since it is an upgraded Warrior and there is no technology requirement for Warriors. My question is can Greeks also build their Hoplite UU from turn 1? The Hoplite is an upgraded Spearmen, the requirement for Spearmen is Bronze Working, and the Greeks start with Bronze Working. So it would seem the answer is yes.

As a builder, it's hard to see a better choice for my first game than the Greeks. I can garrison my cities right away with the strongest defensive unit available in the ancient era. Plus the Greek strengths of Commercial and Scientific are obviously what a builder likes (maybe Industrious would be good, but you can't argue against Commerical and Scientific).

What does everyone else think?

	26-10-2001 08:22									#2
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First you need Bronze Working
Then you need iron.

	26-10-2001 08:40									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia First you need Bronze Working Then you need iron.

The Greeks start with Bronze Working. And I don't believe iron is a requirement for building Spearmen. Since the Hoplite is an upgraded Spearmen, I don't believe iron is necessary for the Hoplite either.

	26-10-2001 08:48									#4
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THis is all on civ3.com check it out

	26-10-2001 08:50									#5
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If you want to build, expand quickly and defend your new cities, and let them grow wile focusing on science and a good industrial/economic base so you can later churn out units for war or concentrate on winning through UN, spaceship etc, the greeks defenetly arent a bad choise. However, Im not sure they get bronze working from the start or not, but you can get it very quickly even if you dont. Seems like a good plan. On that Topic, I will defenetly play my first game as America, undecided on world map or random, but I guess im just a patriot. ( no not from recent happenings, I usually chose to be America in civ1/2 ctp1/2.) I dont like that America is Industrious/expansionist they should have been industrious/economic or industrious/scientific. I mean come on, expansionist is weak compaired to the other traits. get an explorer at the start and slightly better hut bonus from the start? wow.. yay. And why is America expansionistic? wow... so we populated North America from east to west.... who wouldnt? By 1840's we were at the west coast, then I think in the 1940's or 50's we go Alaska and Hawii, and we have a few military bases in other countries, big deal. Europe cononized America, Africa, took teritories in Asia. Rome isnt expansionist I belive... whats with that? They only held like all of europe, some of asia and africa at their hieght, thats not expansionist? America should have been Industrious (totaly agree) and Commercial or Scientific. I mean the whole reason people came to America was to make more money then they could in europe, and America has been the richest country for the last hundred years. And in science, ( just waiting for someone to debait these... Im not sure on all of em...) electricity, air planes, combustion engine (maybe Germany?) telephone, telegraph, computers, etc all invented in America..... anyway... commercial or scientific would be much better for America then expansionist, but I would play them and win even if they had no attributes at all... btw, anyone know how much of a bonus industrious gives? and if expansionist has any use beyond like 500 bc? Remeber, as I read it, its only start with free explorer and get better goody huts, huts are gone pretty fast and cease to help after a time, and that free explorer wont matter after a short while. It may be a nice little boost in the start, but thats it..... God that F 15 better kick butt... come on, this game was made by Americans....

	26-10-2001 08:58									#6
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Actually the first computer was built in London during WW2. If you don't believe that, take it up with the history channel.

	26-10-2001 09:10									#7
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I think I know what your talking about, the brittish made some comp in ww2 to break German codes... but I think USA still had first comp... it gets complicaed though... what exactly is first comp? some people think the analitical engine was, which was some big hunk of gears and punched cars I think, and you pulled all these levers and then hand cranked a wheel to get it to do some very limited complications... that was in the mid 1800's or so I think. I consider the first comp to run on electricity and make calculations on whatever, Im not sure who had he first one, even if it wasnt America, America defenelty has put out the most new computer tech over the years.

	26-10-2001 09:51									#8
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Well, there are several options for the first computer. As mentioned you have Charles Babbage (UK) who definitely laid the foundations. Then you have the Colossus during WW2 and a whole offspring of smaller devices that were used for codebreaking at Blechley Park (UK). One of the masterminds their was Alan Turing. And in the United States, the first computer that was built based on the principles we use today was von Neumann's machine, with some predecessors like the ENIAC and the EDVAC. Built in the USA was one thing, but von Neumann was Hungarian however.

However there's absolutely no doubt that the USA's credit is advancing the computer era enormously and making the computer a daily tool. (like IBM etc...)

Stefan.

	26-10-2001 10:05									#9
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==============================================
com·put·er (km-pytr)
n.
A device that computes, especially a programmable electronic machine that performs high-speed mathematical or logical operations or that assembles, stores, correlates, or otherwise processes information.
==============================================

==============================================
John Napier (1550-1617) belonged to the landed aristocracy of Scotland. He was really the first Scottish mathematician of any note. He discovered logarithms, made a mechanical multiplier, provided information to allow the slide rule to be invented, and worked on agriculture and military science.

The mechanical multiplier has come to be known as Napier's bones or Napier's rods because it can be made of bone, wood or even paper.
http://www.tased.edu.au/schools/rok...ign2/napier.htm
==============================================

I therefore conclude that Napier's Bones was the very first computer.

Well, if you really wanted to take it back, I guess the abacus could be counted too. Napier's Bone's seems to be the start of what we know as the computer revolution though.

Last edited by CygnusZ on 26-10-2001 at 10:30

	26-10-2001 10:19									#10
	Re: Can Greeks build Hoplites from turn 1? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by albiedamned My question is can Greeks also build their Hoplite UU from turn 1? The Hoplite is an upgraded Spearmen, the requirement for Spearmen is Bronze Working, and the Greeks start with Bronze Working. So it would seem the answer is yes. What does everyone else think?

Yes, you're right. And from what I've seen, there is no resource requirement for Hoplites (sorry Lawrence, you're wrong). So the Greeks can build them right away. That is a good start.

Funny how this thread became a discussion of the origin of the first computer....

	26-10-2001 11:03									#11
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hehe yeah I wanted to turn it to how I think America shouldnt be expansionistic but instead it got turned into a discussion of the first computer.... knew the science thing would start something.

	26-10-2001 12:05									#12
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US = commercial, industrious

commercial because, well, look at the effort put into making money around here.

industrious because, well see above, and when the natives get lazy a new wave of immigrants comes over, works their a$$es off.

Science is some sort of weird byproduct that religious fanatics haven't quite managed to ban from the public school houses.

	26-10-2001 12:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar US = commercial, industrious commercial because, well, look at the effort put into making money around here. industrious because, well see above, and when the natives get lazy a new wave of immigrants comes over, works their a$$es off. Science is some sort of weird byproduct that religious fanatics haven't quite managed to ban from the public school houses.

Definitely a warlord of logic

	26-10-2001 13:52									#14
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Lawrence, you need Bronze deposits, not Iron deposits.

About the first comp: theoretically every mechanical computing device is a computer. More important is the programmable computer landmark and the electronic computer landmark. In WWII a Brit built the first electronic computer using ~1500 vacuum tubes. It was programmable, but I don't know if it was the first probrammable computer. ENIAC usually gets the credit, but it was built along the same general lines in 1946. The only problem is that the existence of the British Colossus was kept as an Official Secret until...1977 or so? In addition to this computer, many mechanical computers were in operation for use in code-breaking, but these were most definitely not electronic, and were not (I think) programmable.

	26-10-2001 16:26									#15
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Bronze is an alloy of Copper, Nickel and Tin, and as such will be very difficult to find deposits of it And to not complicate things, Copper, Nickel and Tin are not strategic resources.

Dan confirmed that Hoplites (and any bronze units) dont require resources, after someone else suggested that they needed a 'bronze deposit'

	26-10-2001 16:57									#16
	Put an end to popups!

Yep, Greeks can build hoplites from turn one!!

	26-10-2001 16:59									#17
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Interesting. I go to sleep wondering if anyone will reply to me on this thread about whether the Greeks can build Hoplites from turn 1. I wake up to read an interesting but completely off-topic discussion of the origin of computers!

As someone mentioned, there is no Bronze resource. So I'm pretty sure there is no resource requirement at all for Hoplites. And the Greeks definitely have Bronze Working as a starting tech. So I believe I am correct - the Greeks can build Hoplites right away.

	26-10-2001 19:21									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Bronze is an alloy of Copper, Nickel and Tin, and as such will be very difficult to find deposits of it And to not complicate things, Copper, Nickel and Tin are not strategic resources. Dan confirmed that Hoplites (and any bronze units) dont require resources, after someone else suggested that they needed a 'bronze deposit'

At several points, "Bronze" was mentioned as a required resource. This was a couple of months ago.

	26-10-2001 19:24									#19
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Just checked http://www.civ3.com/civoftheweek.cfm?civ=Greeks

By virtue of them not mentioning resources, I'm going to assume that now the spearman and hoplite require no resources.

	27-10-2001 22:12									#20
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To crack codes Bletchey Park also hooked up several Enigmas (or computers not sure which) and made a Bombe which could rapidly calculate and figure out those German intercepts

	28-10-2001 01:06									#21
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About the first computer: Isn't the abacus a computing machine? A friend of mine has a picture in his house that calls it the first computer. It's a lot older than anything the Brithish used in WW2.

	28-10-2001 02:22									#22
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quote: Originally posted by VetteroX I will defenetly play my first game as America, undecided on world map or random, but I guess im just a patriot. ( no not from recent happenings, I usually chose to be America in civ1/2 ctp1/2.) I dont like that America is Industrious/expansionist they should have been industrious/economic or industrious/scientific. I mean come on, expansionist is weak compaired to the other traits. get an explorer at the start and slightly better hut bonus from the start? wow.. yay. And why is America expansionistic? wow... so we populated North America from east to west.... who wouldnt? By 1840's we were at the west coast, then I think in the 1940's or 50's we go Alaska and Hawii, and we have a few military bases in other countries, big deal. Europe cononized America, Africa, took teritories in Asia. Rome isnt expansionist I belive... whats with that? They only held like all of europe, some of asia and africa at their hieght, thats not expansionist? America should have been Industrious (totaly agree) and Commercial or Scientific.

Actually I think that AMERCAINS are VERY POWERFULL.
At FIRST because of expansionistic ablity, when other civs have 2 cities you will have 4 cities, an army and better science, wich will probable make you a very powerfull civ for the whole game. And INDUSTRIOUS is one of the best abilities, wich will make you build settlers quicker.
I remember one MP game in CIV2, one player hav 2 settler at the start & others just one.
He had the lead through all game!
Expansionistic Bonus is just something similar.

I would normally play Americans (from gameplay poiont), but since I don't like playing Americans (I WON't give you a resons, this is not an appropirate thread) I would probaly play some other civ.

Personally, best civs (non militarisic) are French (all aroud), Americans (for settling), Persians (all aroud but better science) and Greeks (for science freaks).