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TVA22
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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! I totally agree with all of the people who say this should be kept light-hearted and focus on the good! For one, civ is a game, yes one intended to somewhat take things from real life, but in the 6 months or so I've visited apolyton, all I seem to find are Japan--Haters. Yes, they committed horrible atrocities, but so has almost everyone else, it just happens that the Japanese and the Germans happen to have committed thier atrocities most recently... You b!tch about the Japanese killing the Chinese... I don't advocate that at all, but maybe we should have a whole page dedicated to the Opium Wars, and the atrocities that came about there?! Have any of you even heard of that? My guess is no, you all are just products of History Textbooks, you won't realize that the Axis powers were provoked by the Allies, it's well known. Again, that doesn't excuse the atrocities, but seriously, they also skipped over detailed descriptions of Japanese culture, art, liturature (which most ignorant westerners just assume doesn't even exist). They're providing a general overview, and all of you who hate the Japanese so much should go read a political analysis of the Far East from about 1200-on. You all just want them to focus on the bad at this site, and if you really think civ should be a history lesson, then I'm sorry for you, it's a game, yes an informative one, but not a history lesson, by any means. The Japanese today are not the Japanese of Imperial Japan, the Majority of Japanese were never savage killers, it was an isolated part of thier history when the military got completely out of control of the Government's hands, and it was all a reaction to western imperialism in the Far East. Sorry this is so long winded, but I've always studied Japan and China on my own, and in school, now in college, and this kind of Ignorant country/race bashing P!SSES me off SO MUCH, look at the big picture, and stop treating these people like monsters because of thier past!!! Look at the big picture, and see what a magnificent, interesting, and totally unique culture they have. I don't think we should "white wash" all the horrible things about Japanese history, but if they're not pointing out everyone elses faults, why pick on the Japanese? Because they bombed Pearl Harbor? (Which had a tactical reason, was a military target, and was not at all similar to SEPT 11, like lots of analyists have been saying). Because they're Asians, and I get the feeling most of these Japan-bashers are white americans aged 12-15? Because they lost the war, and it was the most recent war of it's kind? Why, why do they deserve to be bashed everywhere, but it's okay to forgive and forget everyone else's brutality?
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TVA22
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Wow... I'm stunned... for once, I'm not getting flamed for being a nipponophile? What's going on? Where am I?! But seriously, thankyou, thankyou so much, it's nice to find someone who agrees with me, for once.
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TVA22
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I'm an American, and I (though I'm in the very very very small minority here) do accept that America did ask for it at Pearl Harbor, I know my history. I also think that the Western European allies and America asked for it from Germany. Hello, Versailles Treaty? C'mon, what were they thinking?! The real enemy in WW1 was secret alliances, Germany was no more at fault for it than France, and Germany didn't deserve to have to take all the blame for it, all they did was come to Austria's side, as stipulated in their alliance. It's true, both Germany and Japan were provoked into WW2, I'll defend that point of view with you kitten of chaos. But your last statement, about people who let themselves be victimized? I don't know what you mean, or were you not even speaking to me? I certainly don't think Japan let herself be victimized, the Japanese fought it out to the bitter end, further than most other countries would have.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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they mentioned Nagasaki and hiroshima when the Japanese came, so they should mention Dresden when the German come... and Schweinfurt, Hamburg, Berlin, Lübeck, Plauen, Cottbus,... *put in every German city here, no matter whether there was industry or not*... .
and they should mention all 3 of them (Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Dresden) when the americans come 
and the only country that wanted the Versailles treaty in the classical form was France... damn Clemenceau and the lot... and the only countries that chopped even more territory off Germany after the SECOND war (when the west had realized punishing Germany would be false) was the USSR and Polan
France was punished during WWII... Poland and Russia are still being punished, as the rest of the USSR is, by the fact they're all in economic depression... really, when the time of the reunification of Germany was on, many East Europeans feared that Germany might once again come to power and take territories of Poland... but then, the poor peole in Poland said they would be happy if the German east border was moved to the east, because everyone knew the East of Germany as going to gain a lot of economic growth from the reunification... wel, the economy here is still down, even wekaer than in socialist times... but the wealth has increased to the extreme, and I know what I'm talking about... I'm in contact with East Germany where I live and with Poland where my parents have studied and still know many people, so there's no sense in telling me I'm wrong. I'm digressing... just don't take the word 'punishing' in this last paragraph too serious, I just want to say there's no need for hatred between European peoples, at least us Germans don't have either the right nor the need to complain about the current situation in Europe. End of the story.
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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how many Chinese were killed by the Japanese then? wasn't it several thousands a day for a few months?
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YefeiPi
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Canada
Jul 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! I totally agree with all of the people who say this should be kept light-hearted and focus on the good! For one, civ is a game, yes one intended to somewhat take things from real life, but in the 6 months or so I've visited apolyton, all I seem to find are Japan--Haters. Yes, they committed horrible atrocities, but so has almost everyone else, it just happens that the Japanese and the Germans happen to have committed thier atrocities most recently... You b!tch about the Japanese killing the Chinese... I don't advocate that at all, but maybe we should have a whole page dedicated to the Opium Wars, and the atrocities that came about there?! Have any of you even heard of that? My guess is no, you all are just products of History Textbooks, you won't realize that the Axis powers were provoked by the Allies, it's well known. Again, that doesn't excuse the atrocities, but seriously, they also skipped over detailed descriptions of Japanese culture, art, liturature (which most ignorant westerners just assume doesn't even exist). They're providing a general overview, and all of you who hate the Japanese so much should go read a political analysis of the Far East from about 1200-on. You all just want them to focus on the bad at this site, and if you really think civ should be a history lesson, then I'm sorry for you, it's a game, yes an informative one, but not a history lesson, by any means. The Japanese today are not the Japanese of Imperial Japan, the Majority of Japanese were never savage killers, it was an isolated part of thier history when the military got completely out of control of the Government's hands, and it was all a reaction to western imperialism in the Far East. Sorry this is so long winded, but I've always studied Japan and China on my own, and in school, now in college, and this kind of Ignorant country/race bashing P!SSES me off SO MUCH, look at the big picture, and stop treating these people like monsters because of thier past!!! Look at the big picture, and see what a magnificent, interesting, and totally unique culture they have. I don't think we should "white wash" all the horrible things about Japanese history, but if they're not pointing out everyone elses faults, why pick on the Japanese? Because they bombed Pearl Harbor? (Which had a tactical reason, was a military target, and was not at all similar to SEPT 11, like lots of analyists have been saying). Because they're Asians, and I get the feeling most of these Japan-bashers are white americans aged 12-15? Because they lost the war, and it was the most recent war of it's kind? Why, why do they deserve to be bashed everywhere, but it's okay to forgive and forget everyone else's brutality?
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I just would like to say something. What the Japanese soldier did in WWII to China and other Asian countries were not simply atrocities, they were acts worse than what animals would conduct. You would call raping pregnant women and slicing their stomachs, then stick their bloody babies on a sword like shish kebobs atrocity? This is an act of extreme barbarism, hell, I don't even believe animals would do that.
And don't ever say to me if I had personally experienced the sino-japanese war, my grand parents did and they didn't make me forget it.
As you can see, I hate those Americans just as much for nuking Japan's innocent civilians on Hiroshima, but I also hate those Japanese soldiers to the extreme for the atrocities (too light of a description for what they did).
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IBNobody
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Fort Wayne, Indiana
Oct 2001
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by YefeiPi
What the Japanese soldier did in WWII to China and other Asian countries were not simply atrocities, they were acts worse than what animals would conduct. |
Yes, Japan committed some terrible crimes against China, but they were NOTHING compared to what China did to themselves.
You can thank Mao Tse-Tung for that one. His social plans ended up in disaster, causing mass starvation among millions of Chinese.
quote:
From: WAR ISN'T THIS CENTURY'S BIGGEST KILLER by R.J. Rummel
Both World Wars cost twenty-four million battle deaths. But from 1918 to 1953, the Soviet government executed, slaughtered, starved, beat or tortured to death, or otherwise killed 39,500,000 of its own people (my best estimate among figures ranging from a minimum of twenty million killed by Stalin to a total over the whole communist period of eighty-three million). For China under Mao Tse-tung, the communist government eliminated, as an average figure between estimates, 45,000,000 Chinese. The number killed for just these two nations is about 84,500,000 human beings, or a lethality of 252 percent more than both World Wars together. |
That's right! Chairman Mao is ranked #1 on the list of all-time killers, easily ahead of Stalin and Hitler.
- Nobody
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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but the conclusion is wrong
both world wars counted together killed 60 million people. 85 million is not 3.52 * 60 million is it? and it's not 2.52* as much either if I get the wrong idea of "252 percent higher"...
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IBNobody
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Fort Wayne, Indiana
Oct 2001
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ecthelion
but the conclusion is wrong
both world wars counted together killed 60 million people. 85 million is not 3.52 * 60 million is it? and it's not 2.52* as much either if I get the wrong idea of "252 percent higher"... |
The conclusion is correct. More than 24 million may have died, but they didn't die in battle. Here's the first two paragraphs of the article.
quote:
Link to: WAR ISN'T THIS CENTURY'S BIGGEST KILLER
Our century is noted for its absolute and bloody wars. World War I saw nine-million people killed in battle, an incredi ble record that was far surpassed within a few decades by the 15 million battle deaths of World War II. Even the number killed in twentieth century revolutions and civil wars have set historical records. In total, this century's battle killed in all its international and domestic wars, revolutions, and violent conflicts is so far about 35,654,000.
Yet, even more unbelievable than these vast numbers killed in war during the lifetime of some still living, and largely unknown, is this shocking fact. This century's total killed by absolutist governments already far exceeds that for all wars, domestic and international. Indeed, this number already approximates the number that might be killed in a nuclear war. |
- Nobody
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Shadowstrike
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The Glorious Land of Canada
Jul 2000
time: 00:15
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I don't think I've ever gotten so angry over any single thread then this one. Not only the selective use of education to exclude details that would affect natinal allies and paint a nation's rival as a victim.
I will say this again: The Chinese people have been a victim of the century, and yet their suffering is being scoured from history for the mear fact that they have not been friends of America? How many of our generation would even know that the Japanese killed millions of innocents for the sake of killing, because they felt like it and because of raw brutality? Who even gives that a passing mention? The Japanese? Hell no. The Americans? Yeah, and the Earth is flat.
Yet in the very same vein, the massacres of Mao are painted as black as Hitler and Stalin. No, I am not defending Mao, for he was an evil man, but I find it repulsive that for the mear purposes of propaganda, our history has been erased, and that two equally bad masacres and epitaphs of human suffering, that one is knocked over and forgotten, while the other remains as a symbol of the rightousness of pursuing a crusade against a certain nation.
If you ask any Chinese person who experienced the second world war, they can litterally tell you stories of brutality from that period that could make anyone shiver up in fear, and thank God/any deity that you did not live in that period. In the same straw, those who survived Mao can tell similar tales. The generations after us must be taught these stories and this dark piece of history for they must know. The needless deaths of hundreds of millions throughout the century from cruel masters who had no more compassion thenone would have for termites in their house. They must know this, for we must never allow the mistakes of the past to be repeated in the future. We cannot edit the truth to fit our needs, not pretend that such events never happened, for they did, but instead, the tale must be taught and generations to come horrified by them enough never to do so again.
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joer
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Frankfurt, Germany
Apr 2000
time: 05:15
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A quick comparison:
standard knight: 4-3-2, horses + iron
Indian elefant: 4-3-2, no ressources
Japanese samurai: 4-4-2, iron
Chinese rider: 4-4-3, horses+iron
I guess all of these UU's look balanced. Each unit has 2 bonuses from the standard knight, where a bonus can either mean a point or a ressource they don't need.
However, comparing the three UU's, I think the Japanese still looks like the most unimportant from a strategic point of view.
If you want to be totally independant from ressources, take the Indians and build elefants. If you think you will have access to ressources anyways and just want to get hands on a huge, powerful unit in that era, use the Chinese. But the Japanese samurai looks to me like one of those awful 'things in the middle' which can't really fulfill a strategic purpose all that much better than other units.
Sure, it can act as a better (costy) defender, but wouldn't speed be much more important than added defense value, making the Chinese UU so attractive? Also, I am not completely sure if any knight derivative will be powerful enough to take down a walled city in that era. A base defender can have a defense of 3. If 'fortify' and city walls work the same way in Civ3, he's gonna get a real defense rate of 3*1.5*3 = 13.5. Not much use banging an attack 4 unit against it.
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Ironwood
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Fresno, CA
Oct 2001
time: 21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by joer
A quick comparison:
standard knight: 4-3-2, horses + iron
Indian elefant: 4-3-2, no ressources
Japanese samurai: 4-4-2, iron
Chinese rider: 4-4-3, horses+iron
Sure, it can act as a better (costy) defender, but wouldn't speed be much more important than added defense value, making the Chinese UU so attractive? Also, I am not completely sure if any knight derivative will be powerful enough to take down a walled city in that era. A base defender can have a defense of 3. If 'fortify' and city walls work the same way in Civ3, he's gonna get a real defense rate of 3*1.5*3 = 13.5. Not much use banging an attack 4 unit against it. |
I have a feeling, due to the considerably higher defense numbers (defense 4 didn't appear before riflemen in Civ2), the mechanics won't be the same. Not only is there not much use banging an attack 4 unit against, it, there's not even any use banging an attack 6 (catapult) unit against it! Everything is going to be different, but if you look at the actual numbers, the Samurai *is* better than the best of the defensive units of their era. (Aren't pikemen defense 3?) That has to count for something.
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IBNobody
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Fort Wayne, Indiana
Oct 2001
time: 23:15
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Shadowstrike,
My original point (and the point of many others) was that every culture has been on both the swinging and receiving end of the sword. I posted the factoid about Mao because China was being painted as the victem and was made to seem "clean" from committing any atrocities.
While I don't disagree that we shouldn't forget acts of mass murder, I DO disagree about needing to hear about them in the official Civ3 documentation. Rally against history textbooks and their publishers, not against entertainment software designers.
- Nobody
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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psshht, we don't want to get insulting now do we?
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Ecthy
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Zhonghuà Rénmín Gònghéguó
Mar 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by splangy
Dresden - Part of the plan to lower German moral, but it was still REALLY pointless... But don't come in here and say "how dare you bomb Germany like you did!" when they started the whole thing and were bombing Civilians WAY before we were. |
after fixing spelling mistakes as well... 
Well, we might have started the whole thing, but it is also a question of the amount always. We didn't to carpet bombing to your cities as you did, at least not in the amount you did it. You bombed like every German city, whereas we limited it to industrially important sites, and to the industrial areas as well.
Look, whenever I mention the Indian wars as a counter-argument against the Holocaust, I'm told about immense differences in figures... that is true, but we don't want to forget about this when it comes to city bombing, eh?
Imran - it's racist 
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The Templar
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People's Republic of the East Village
Oct 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by splangy
Versailles- Unfair? yes. Does it condone the slaughter of all those Jews? NO! simple as that...( besides, It was the Frenches idea, not America/Britons |
Agreed, 100%.
quote:
Pearl Harbor- Geee, I guess America should have just let them capture the whole of Asia. Im sure sorry that we cut there oil off to try and stop there bloody expansion |
Somewhat agreed. Again, Japanese initiated the violence - and its not like they were playing nice with the rest of Asia.
quote:
Japenese containment camps- Just the U.S. getting a little Jumpy, but its not like they were death camps, certainly nowhere near as bad as China... |
A little jumpy? Fine our camps were nowhere near as bad as Hitler's and Japan's. But do we really want to defend our actions by saying "well they were like Hitler's but far better." Wrong is wrong, whether you are jumpy or not. I would also point out that German descent Americans were not placed in camps, nor Italians. It was racist and wrong, and if anyone who was in any way responsible for implementing those camps is alive today they should be thrown in prison as a message to future would-be leaders that everyone has to pay the price - even if it seemed right at the time.
quote:
Dresdon- Part of the plan to lower german moral, but it was still REALLY pointless... But don't come in here and say "how dare you bomb Germany like you did!" when they started the whole thing and were bombing Civilians WAY before we were. |
Wrong is wrong - another unjustified allied atrocity.
quote:
The simple point is that all nations have commited atrocities. However, you must remember that few atrocitries were commited that the people who carried them out didn't see as "fair" or "Just" |
Yes, and slave-holders saw their practice as just. Big deal.
Nobody got through WWII with clean hands. Admit it, rectify the problem if possible, and do not repeat. Yes, the Axis were far worse than the Allies, but the Allies could have and should have acted better than they did. Sorry, its a fact.
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gopher
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I eat my own poop
Dec 1999
time: 00:15
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I see that tempers are high on this thread. However, we must remember that ALL of our nations have done reprehensible things in the past. That is a given. What matters is how the nations have dealt with that history. And it is here that I believe that the U.S. and Germany have done the best.
Yes, the U.S made internment camps, had slavery, and killed Indians. However, we teach our children about that in the most direct way. Ask any of the Americans here about their schooling, and I guarantee the topic of Indian genocide, slavery, and japanese internment has come up a lot. We deal with it. What does that mean? Look at now, after Sept 11th. The govt. has said over and over that this is the act of a small minority group, that Muslums are not to blame, etc. Looks like we learned our lesson a bit. I know its not perfect, but it's a start.
Now lets look at other places. Yes, bad things have occured. But in some areas, it's hard to look at the past and reflect, especially when you've done some pretty bad things. (I will use Japan here, but this has no reflection on my feelings twords that nation or peoples). There has been a kind of public denial over a lot of the WW2 stuff, such as Korean sex slaves, Chinese biological testing, etc...so much that it hasnt even been included in Japanese history textbooks. Now I dont believe that we should only teach our mistakes and not the sucsesses, but still, ignorance leads to a repeat of history.
And guess what? Bad things will still happen. Its human nature, or more precisly, government nature. But only through our history and learnings can we try to combat (and hopefully minimize) it. Every nation has its skeletons, those which confront them are not left to the dustbin of history.
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27-10-2001 09:22
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