29-10-2001 12:45									#61
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quote: All our countries have committed horrible atrocities in the past.

What've the Swedes done? We have Swedes on this forum, don't we?



And how about the Canadians? Did they even bother displacing the Eskimos? (I'm not up to par on my Canadian history.)

	29-10-2001 13:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Adrien What've the Swedes done? We have Swedes on this forum, don't we?

How far back are you allowed to go? And what is defined as horrible acts?
In WWII Sweden allowed German troops to travel on the Swedish railway to Norway and Finland. Sweden also sold Iron to the Germans. The G-code were also decrypted and used to know what the Germans were doing.

I didn't live back then and don't know how hard the pressure was on the government, but I think it was wrong to help the Germans.

	29-10-2001 13:00									#63
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I know the Swedes were involved in the Thirty Years War. I doubt they got through that bloodbath without Gustavus Adolphus ordering some atrocities. They also sold the Nazis iron ore during WWII. I'll leave the Canadian stuff to someone more knowledgable on the subject.

	29-10-2001 13:46									#64
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TVA22- As far as i'm concerned you and the rest of the historical revisionists can piss off until you come the the war museum in Beijing and look at the pictures of Japanese atrocities that are STILL BANNED in japan.

As far as the States "asking for it" from Japan.... (skip the insults here ) Japan started it's latest colonization of China in the 19th century with Taiwan. The Japanese were commiting crimes against East Asian countries way before teh United States did anything provacative.

As for your statement that Japanese militarism was in isolated incident: GET REAL... how many times has Japan invaded Korea???
Maybe china and korea "provoked" Japan by having stuff that Japan wanted.

As for the fairy tail vision of "honorable samurai" why don't you read "Musui's Story" (look on Amazon) which is an autobiography of a samurai which reveals them as being nothing more than a caste of thugs.

Be that as it may, my only beef with Japan of today is the government's historical revisionism. People should not "give them a break" for this anymore than we should forget about Human Rights in China or economic colonization by the US, or tolerance of fundementalism in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, or the lack of women's rights in a variety of places.

No culture is innocent... yes dresden, yes hiroshima, yes the native american holocaust, yes franco's spain, yes the khmer rouge.

Camus said "history is divided into victims and executioners. It is our responsibility to be on the side of the victims." he also said that we should strive to be neither a victim nor an executioner... good words...

oh, and as far as canada goes... canucks like to think themselves blameless in affairs, but how about cultural genocide against native americans indians? the canadian government stole indian children from their parents and raised them in white homes in an effort to destroy indigenous culture. australia did this as well...

you shouldn't feel it is your responsibility to defend a culture just because you like some aspects of it. the nature of cultures is that they are amorphous and impossible to essentialize. all we can do is come to terms with the mistakes of the past

it is stupid to say "x culture is worse than y because n people were killed" .. mentioning japan's problems is no more japan bashing then mentioning jim crow laws is bashing america. it happened. deal with it.

end transmission

	29-10-2001 14:45									#65
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Scatalogical Metaphor for the arguement of Those Who Would Defend the Executioners

----------

I pooed on the floor, but it's not a big deal.
It doesn't smell much. Other people also poo on the floor sometimes, and their poo smells worse.
In addition there is somebody in the bathroom. It's their fault I pooed on the floor, not mine.

SO I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CLEAN IT UP

	29-10-2001 19:22									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're not the only nippon-phile here, TVA22. And I don't think Kitten was arguing with you, I think he was agreeing with you. Japan was baited into the war by the US, as any examination of history will show you.

No, I have to correct you again. Japan attacked US as it was the only superpower in the Far East that could pose a threat, to conquest of Philippines, French Indochina, Dutch East Indies and British Malaya.

	29-10-2001 19:29									#67
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Just for a little scope about Canada.

Yes, even the Canadians have had some blemishes.
From the treatment of First Nations (Amer Indians), to the hanging of Louis Ridel (sp?) and the subjigation of the Metis' in the West, to the PQ's chauvenest Quebec policies (I know that being "master of your house" is important, but to the extent of discriminating against Anglo speakers?) Sure, it's not the Khemer Rogue, but even our friendly neighbor to the north has some black eyes. But I still think Canada is in the running (2nd, actually, very close) to being the best Nation on Earth.

p.s. I guess this thread can also be used in any "Americans dont know jack about their neighbors" threads.

	29-10-2001 23:10									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion after fixing spelling mistakes as well... Well, we might have started the whole thing, but it is also a question of the amount always. We didn't to carpet bombing to your cities as you did, at least not in the amount you did it. You bombed like every German city, whereas we limited it to industrially important sites, and to the industrial areas as well. Look, whenever I mention the Indian wars as a counter-argument against the Holocaust, I'm told about immense differences in figures... that is true, but we don't want to forget about this when it comes to city bombing, eh? Imran - it's racist

oh no we started a war that killed millions of people but please don't attack us.

	30-10-2001 03:35									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Boliao No, I have to correct you again. Japan attacked US as it was the only superpower in the Far East that could pose a threat, to conquest of Philippines, French Indochina, Dutch East Indies and British Malaya.

You are ignoring the fact that Japan invaded the Dutch East Indies for oil. They needed oil because the United States had stopped all exports of American oil to Japan. American oil accounted for 90% of Japan's total oil supply, so when that supply was cut off Japan really had no choice in expanding into the East Indies, unless they just wanted to just roll over and die. Also, Japan didn't want to fight a war with the US; they had tried to find a way to expand in Southeast Asia without fighting the Americans. Roosevelt made it clear that any attack on British or Dutch possessions would be considered an attack on the US, so the Japanese had to attack the Phillipines to avoid having an enemy force in their rear.

I agree with the American decision to force Japan into war; it was in our best interest to stop both Japanese and German expansion. What I don't agree with is placing all the blame for the Pacific War on Japan. America was just as guilty for starting the war as Japan was.

	30-10-2001 03:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by gopher But I still think Canada is in the running (2nd, actually, very close) to being the best Nation on Earth.

Who's number one?

	30-10-2001 09:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Who's number one?

Netherlands was ranked #1 as best place to live this year.