27-10-2001 11:32									#1
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Hey,

I know it has been discussed a lot on this forum, but I would like to bring up the U.N. topic once again. Firaxis updated their FAQ yesterday and after playtesting I hoped they would have rescaled the conditions to be on the U.N. council.

Let's face it, if you are playing with 16 civilizations in the game, how can any nation achieve 25% of population or 25% of the available territory (especially if you count in all the uninhabitable seas which make up at least 60% of a random map or don't sea squares count for that?)

And how would you ever have 3 or 4 nations on the council? That would leave at least 14 civilizations with about 4% of the population or territory each on average.

Wouldn't it be more viable to have the original rules grant a permanent seat in the council and let these permanent members 'grant' other nations at least a temporary seat (if they are allied or something)?

Will this be possible using the editor? If you look at the screenshots it can do a lot, but can implement this rather complicated rule?

	27-10-2001 11:39									#2
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I had suggested before that to be 'on' the UN council does not mean you will not get to vote, just that it means you are a candidate to be elected. Therefore, if you have either built the wonder, own 25% of the pop, or 25% of the land, you are eligible to be World Leader (but only if the remaining civs elect you in).

This is how it was in SMAC; for the most part.

	27-10-2001 11:52									#3
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Sounds like a good suggestion to me!

However, I think there should be an option to exclude certain civilization. The United Nations started very utopic after World War II and personally I think it is a wonderful institution with great value, but the political reality shows that the embassadors to the U.N. do not always reflect the real powers in a nation. E.g. the representative for Afghanistan is a not a Taliban but someone from the Afghan opposition. (I'm not starting a political discussion here, merely stating facts to give an idea)

Some historians claim the U.N. to be a very 'free civilized world' icon that does not necessarily reflect all the moral and ethical views from other ethnic groups, and as such it would be more realistic that the civ who builds the Wonder has the opportunity to allow or refuse who's on the Council.

	27-10-2001 13:23									#4
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What is the vote you need to get again? Is it over 51% of have they not said?

	27-10-2001 21:04									#5
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What happens if you're the only one eligable for leader. Are you automatically put into power, or does the second closest person go against you?

	27-10-2001 21:50									#6
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Well, you start with 16 civilizations, but when you'll build the UN maybe will be the half o less from the original number of civilizations.
So I think is possible a nation achieve 25% of population or 25% of the available territory.

	28-10-2001 01:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by StratAll However, I think there should be an option to exclude certain civilization.

No, you can't exclude civilizations. THat is just totally undemocratic and is totally contrary to what the UN is supposed to be (in real life).

quote: Some historians claim the U.N. to be a very 'free civilized world' icon that does not necessarily reflect all the moral and ethical views from other ethnic groups, and as such it would be more realistic that the civ who builds the Wonder has the opportunity to allow or refuse who's on the Council.

The civ that builds the wonder should NOT be able to dictate the council. Otherwise, it'll just be an elite group and opponents won't join it. For example, imagine if USA built the UN (it did with help) and had the powers you mentioned. If that were the case, none of the "communist" countries would ever have been part of the UN and many other African, Latin & South American, and Asian countries would have never joined it (those with human rights problems, dictatorships, autocratic governments, etc). In addition, as I said above, if you start excluding certain countries, it won't be democratic.

I think what is implemented in Civ III is all right except for one thing. I really hope that the land requirement does not count water areas. If it did count oceans, and others, it is going to be next to impossible to hit 25% Some people are complaining about population requirement but I don't think it's too bad. Yes 25% is a lot but what are the chances that all 8 civilizations will be dominant. Most likely, 2 or 3 of them will be very small and probably won't have many cities.

The key thing to remember in all this is that the victor must be dominant. So you really need to set high goals like 25% land or pop. If the goals were too low then it would be way too easy. If you look at the cultural victory and the spaceship victory, the UN victory is just as difficult so it's fair.

KoalaBear33

	28-10-2001 01:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by zeh Well, you start with 16 civilizations, but when you'll build the UN maybe will be the half o less from the original number of civilizations. So I think is possible a nation achieve 25% of population or 25% of the available territory.

yep... the only thing is that I hope that they don't count water as land or else, it will be really difficult to get 25% of the land...

KoalaBear33

	28-10-2001 01:44									#9
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Hey I'm just wondering, is the UN council going to be like the council in SMAC? Where they can all make some sort of global decisions? Was there any info on this? Or is the UN strictly for the diplomatic victory?

	28-10-2001 06:25									#10
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From Ask the Civ Team:

quote: The catch here is that in order to even be on the U.N. council (and thus eligible to be elected U.N. leader), you must either control 25% of the world's territory or population.

It says its base on the world's territory, so i dont think oceans are counted as part of this.