27-10-2001 17:43									#1
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What is in Civ three to prevent two tanks being beated by 4 infantry men like in CTP?

	27-10-2001 19:48									#2
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Infantry can and do beat on tanks routinely. It is a proper and realistic game dynamic. Look up the '73 Yom Kippur war. More tanks were detroyed in that war then in the entire NATO arsenal at the time. All because of anti-tank missiles, particularly the TOW which was brand new and airlifted to the Israelis to give them a fighting chance.

It should not be a matter of tanks being beaten by infantry, it should be a matter to using combined arms, which I do not believe is included in Civ3. Tanks without infantry support are sitting ducks. However, together they're a very tough nut to crack.

	27-10-2001 20:03									#3
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The real problem was when your Battleships died to enemy Phalanxes.

	27-10-2001 20:07									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Solver The real problem was when your Battleships died to enemy Phalanxes.

This sort of thing will probably never happen in civ3 because of the new att/def points given to old and modern units. A battleship has like 20 att whereas your phalanx gets like 2 att. The battleship is so much stronger that I doubt the phalanx could win!

	27-10-2001 20:11									#5
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In addition, I'm sure that Civ3 will implement sea-land combat as bombardment based (like in SMAC). A battleship will be able to bombard a land unit, but will not be able to actually attack it. Most likely the only unit then can do direct attack from sea to land will be Marine units.

	27-10-2001 20:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This sort of thing will probably never happen in civ3 because of the new att/def points given to old and modern units. A battleship has like 20 att whereas your phalanx gets like 2 att. The battleship is so much stronger that I doubt the phalanx could win!

never played CIV1?

the battleship had an attck value of 18. the phalanx had an attack value of 2.

what do you think where the rumr comes from? it's CIV1. in CIV2, a battleship was never beaten by a phalanx, not even when the latter was on a mountain with river and coastal fortress. CIV1 is the key, fellow.

yet in Civ2 it still happened, due to terrain reasons and a too strong city wall improvement, that modern units lost to obsolete units. I prefered the city walls in CTP, which gave an absolute defense bonus, not a relative one

	27-10-2001 20:54									#7
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Yeah it remains to be seen how this new combat system will work out.

The situation in civ1 was usually Phalanx (2) behind Wall (*2 with veteran status (*1.5) = defense 6.

Now here comes your battleship, not veteran yet... strength 18... 1 in 6 chance you'll lose the ship.

	27-10-2001 20:59									#8
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CTP's combat system was so ridiculous it was unreal. If you created a line of pikmen and ringed archers behind with two cavalry you could take down any single unit, even a fusion tank.

CTP had some good points but combat WASN'T it.

( the whole point of coastal fortresses is to give the idea of extra defense in the city because of canons. This in civ 3 will be better represented as the Coastal Fortress bombards nearby enemy vessels. )

	27-10-2001 21:39									#9
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Excuse me, CtP's combat not good? Civ1/2 didn't even have such a basic military concept as combined arms. In Civ1 (I'm not sure about Civ2, haven't played it in years) all units in a tile were destroyed if one unit lost combat. A single Musketeer could sometimes take out an entire army of Tanks
It's true that CtP1 unmodded wasn't particularly well-balanced but the mods fixed this soon enough (and in CtP2 balance was much improved from the outset). But still, even with unmodded CtP1, if you'd send thousands and thousands of men with pikes and bows after only a handfull of Fusion Tanks, why can't these thousands of men find a way to somehow disable the Tanks?

	27-10-2001 21:53									#10
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I believe that Civ 3 is much less likely than Civ 1 to allow these "odd" results. Hit points are the key. The underdog in the fight is much less likely to win 2 out of 3 rounds.

We'll have to see what the effect of elite obsolete units will be.

	27-10-2001 21:54									#11
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So the formula is defense/offense or something like that.

	27-10-2001 22:18									#12
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I believe Locutus is one of the rares that like CtP much better than Civ2?

Cared to look at AC? Its a "bit" more in the time area of CtP than Civ2.

	27-10-2001 22:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Solver The real problem was when your Battleships died to enemy Phalanxes.

Yeah, and when a single Phalanx behind a Force Shield beat my 2 fusion tanks?
This make I delete this damm CTP from my machine.

	27-10-2001 22:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by RedWhiteArcher I believe Locutus is one of the rares that like CtP much better than Civ2? Cared to look at AC? Its a "bit" more in the time area of CtP than Civ2.

Actually, there's a HUGE group of people who think (some of) the concepts of CtP are superior to Civ2's. There's a smaller but still large group of people who think CtP1/2 itself is superior to Civ2 but there's only a handful of such people who bother to tell the world about their opinion outside the CtP forums (because they know that 99% of the time some ret@rds will come along and flame them for their opinion - just check the Community forum for an excellent example).

IMHO, AC == Civ2 + (SE & UW)
and I personally don't really like SE and UW (but at least they tried...)

	27-10-2001 23:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy The situation in civ1 was usually Phalanx (2) behind Wall (*2 with veteran status (*1.5) = defense 6. Now here comes your battleship, not veteran yet... strength 18... 1 in 6 chance you'll lose the ship.

Actually it works out like this (direct from the Original Civ1 Manual)

Phalanx Defense -->2
Veteran +50% -->3
Fortified +50% -->4.5
City Walls x3 --> 13.5

(I don't know how the games rounds so it really could be a final defense of 12, 13.5, 13, 14 or 15)

against a battleship with attack of 18
(don't forget no veteran sea units in civ1, no port facility)

this does not take into account a terrain bonus either, but there is no bonus for grassland or plains.

That works out to 18 against 12, which means the battleship should lose one out of every 3 battles, highly unrealistic.

I do remember this happening quite often in the original game i.e. a battleship losing to a fortified Phalanx behind city walls.