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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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In the thread "Civ3 Strategy guide is out, Andrew 1999 says
Mech. Inf: Oil, Rubber
Modern Armor: Oil, Rubber, Aluminum
Paratrooper: Oil, rubber
Tank: Oil, Rubber
Battleship: Oil
Carrier: Oil
Destroyer: Oil
Submarine: Oil
Transport: Oil
Bomber: Oil
Fighter: Oil
Helicopter: Oil, rubber
Jet Fighter: Oil
Stealth Bomber: Oil, Aluminum
Stealth Fighter: Oil, Uranium
It would certainly seem that oil is THE end game resource, as it should be.
quote:
Oil 0/1/2 - Refining |
All that oil will appear when refining is developed. Note that there is both a production (1) and economic (2) bonus associated with the resource tile.
Some questions to ponder?
Do you think that the reliance of most of the modern (non-nuclear) units on oil will result in the late game becoming an oil hunt?
It would seem that once you have cut off a nations supply of oil in the modern age, they become ripe for conquest.
Do you think warmongers have an easy route to victory this way, or will cutting off the oil supply be harder than it appears?
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Deathray
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High Wycombe
Oct 2001
time: 05:15
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The fact is that oil is the most important resource in the modern world (if you discount living essentials like food, water etc.).
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Iron. If you don't make it to 1000AD Oil won't help you.... |
I think you're right. The mid-game, which I am coming to realize will be so important depends entirely upon iron.
The following units depend upon iron:
Cannon: Saltpeter, Iron
Knight: Horses, Iron
Pikeman: Iron
Swordsman: Iron
Frigate: Iron, Saltpeter
Ironclad: Iron, Coal
Privateer: Iron, Saltpeter
And the following city improvements require it too...
Coastal Fortress: Iron, Saltpeter
Factory: Iron
Iron Works: Coal and Iron in city radius
Baring the ironclad and swordsmen, all the iron dependant units are certainly middle game.
You CANNOT gain naval superiority during the middle game without iron. You cannot defend against naval superiority (Naval Fortress) without it.
Once you have saltpeter though I am sure you will be building musketmen rather than Knights and pikemen?
I might extend your comment about iron to include saltpeter as well, since the most important middle game units (musketman, cannon and firgate/privateer) depend upon them both.
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Oil is probably the most important resource in the game, as it is in real life. But just to tell you, powering the space **** has nothing to do with oil. Our spacecraft are powered by liquit hydrogen and oxygen. Other things could be used to replace liquit feul is maybe plasma. But oil never came into play here. |
I know this, doh! 
The point I was trying to make was this...
It doesn't matter if you are well on your way to building the starship or not...if you have no oil, you cannot build the majority of the useful modern day units.
Mobile warfare is impossible, tanks require oil.
You cannot project naval power when your opponent has submarines, destroyers, and battleships, and you have ironclads because you have no oil.
You cannot project air superiority (aircraft carrier), or defend your own skies because your airforce consists of gliders, while the enemy has fighters and bombers. Because he has oil!
All you can do is sit in your cities and fortresses and wait for the carpet bombing and naval bombardment to begin.
If you have no oil in the end game, you are finished, fodder for any aggresive civ that wants your land.
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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If you have no oil in the end game you are fodder for any aggresive civ that wants your lands...
...and, a point I made in my first post...
If you deny another Civ the oil that they need to make modern units...
...then they are fodder for you!!!
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Andrew1999
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Oil and uranium are the two resources most likely to be exhausted and disappear from the map.
"Well, Texas has run out, the Persian Gulf has run out, and now the North Sea is out. Quick! Everybody invade Antarctica!"
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Ludwig
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Have the full details of the economic model been published anywhere? Specifically, I'm wondering if the resource requirements are elastic or inelastic. Does quantity matter, or just general accessibility?
In other words, if I have one tile inside my borders that contains iron, or one tile that contains oil, will that be sufficient for as many cities and units as I can muster [assuming everything is connected by roads] or is there a limit to how many units or cities can be supported by/from a single resource tile?
This has gigantic strategic consequences - actually, it pretty much is the deciding factor in determining the relative viability of expansionist and perfectionist styles - but I haven't seen the specific rule defined anywhere. If a single resource tile can support all your units, a perfectionist style is possible and sound - but if there is a support limit per tile, then the expansionist model is self-reinforcing in a feedback-loop sort of way and all other styles of play would pretty much be excluded [the big get bigger and the strong get stronger].
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
In other words, if I have one tile inside my borders that contains iron, or one tile that contains oil, will that be sufficient for as many cities and units as I can muster [assuming everything is connected by roads] or is there a limit to how many units or cities can be supported by/from a single resource tile? |
As I understand it, and the basis for all my recent posts, only one resource (quantity) is required to build as many units as you want, and the resource dependant buildings too.
So...it's somewhat black and white.
You have oil...you have access to many modern units.
You have no oil...you have no modern units...unless someone sells them to you? Will blockade stop this?
If you have more than one oil resource tile being worked you can sell access to it to an ally...or not...as the case may be 
At higher levels where the AI is less likely to trade with you (I would think), an expansionist policy will be essential. You have to increase the likelihood that there will be all the resources within your own borders, or it will be almost impossible to gain the upper hand.
Both world wars depended upon the denial of resources for the axis powers. For those that don't know...
In WW1, Germany used saltpeter (potassium nitrate) resources from South America. It had none within its own national borders. The blockade by the British navy was for the most part extremely effective in denying them access to this resource. It is thought that WW1 would have been an awful lot shorter were this to have remained the case. Then along came Herr. Haber, who as most chemistry-minded high school students know invented the Haber process. This circumvented the blockade and allowed Germany to continue the war.
In WW2, the naval power of the Japanese was severely curtailed by blocking their access to oil reserves. I understand they used all kinds of non-refined alternatives, but none of them allowed the Japanese Navy to be as effective as if it had oil.
Andrew1999
How do you know that oil and uranium are the ones most likely to disappear from the map?
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Dida
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrew1999
yeah, that should have been aluminum. My mistake.
And the strategy guide says, "Uranium and Oil are the most prone to depletion, but Iron, Saltpeter, Aluminum and Coal supplies can also run out." |
is there online version of the strategy guide?
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Assuming that all you're missing is oil, it's a resource that the spaceship doesn't need. Uranium is necessary. (Besides that, no rocket uses oil, they usually use exotic fuels like hydrazine) |
SerapisIV
I don't dispute that oil is not required for the starship launch, but I do maintain however, that it would not be possible for a Civ to protect itself (and complete the starship) if it did not have the modern units that oil allows. Hence my comment about saltpeter and coal.
Late 19th Century units just won't be able to defend against the more modern units.
If you don't have oil, you can't defend yourself in the late game, and its very unlikely that you'll survive to the end of the game, bar defeat.
I challenge everyone, once Civ3 is released, try to win a game, of at least Prince level (that's the one with no AI/player bonuses isn't it?) without exploiting any oil resource at all.
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SerapisIV
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Hartford, CT, USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by UKScud
SerapisIV
I don't dispute that oil is not required for the starship launch, but I do maintain however, that it would not be possible for a Civ to protect itself (and complete the starship) if it did not have the modern units that oil allows. Hence my comment about saltpeter and coal.
Late 19th Century units just won't be able to defend against the more modern units.
If you don't have oil, you can't defend yourself in the late game, and its very unlikely that you'll survive to the end of the game, bar defeat.
I challenge everyone, once Civ3 is released, try to win a game, of at least Prince level (that's the one with no AI/player bonuses isn't it?) without exploiting any oil resource at all. |
Metropolis' give a defense of 100% Infantry have defense of 10, artillery require nothing. The most modern army unit has only 24 attack. I'd say that lots of infantry would fare pretty well in metropolis.' In addition to having artillery to weaken your attackers.
I don't care about real history. The way Civ3 units are established, you could easily protect yourself without oil. You couldn't attack anyone but you could easily defend yourself. Throw in diplomacy with a few client states who want your tech and your civ could easily defend without oil.
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UKScud
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Auckland, NZ
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
I don't care about real history. The way Civ3 units are established, you could easily protect yourself without oil. You couldn't attack anyone but you could easily defend yourself. Throw in diplomacy with a few client states who want your tech and your civ could easily defend without oil. |
Then you'll accept my challenge as a gentlemens wager?
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SerapisIV
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Hartford, CT, USA
Feb 2001
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by UKScud
Then you'll accept my challenge as a gentlemens wager? |
Wish I could, I'll be lucky to play 3 games of Civ3 by the end of May. I'm forced to use my girlfriends computer to play (mine's too old). She also bought the game for me for Xmas. It took 3 weeks of whining for her to let me play it this weekend when it arrives and I can't guarantee that she still will let me play. Also, I guarantee you that she'll whine her way into not letting me play more then 2-5 hours per week, yeah thats right, per week. I'll start hearing the usual whines of "why won't you talk to me, all you care about is that game, why don't you spend time with me." There goes my Civ playing, but at least I'll have the game.
It'll be at least 3 games of just having fun before I'd be confident in my game knowledge to actually take on any resource limited challenges. Ask me again next spring. Maybe I'll actually have finished my second game by then. (women, can't live with them... can't kill 'em)
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28-10-2001 01:33
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