28-10-2001 05:53									#1
	Defense bonus for being in a city!! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: City walls only provide a defense bonus of 50%, and disappear once your city reaches size 7. Size 7-12 cities have an inherent defense bonus of 50%, and cities larger than 12 have an inherent bonus of 100%.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS!

	28-10-2001 06:01									#2
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I believe that was in civ2, too. Wasn't it; or may be i'm thinking of ctp

	28-10-2001 06:06									#3
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No, I don't think it was in civ2. Could have been in CTP; I don't remember anything about that game.

	28-10-2001 06:15									#4
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It makes sense. Protecting in numbers

	28-10-2001 06:33									#5
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Actually, it's more you'll enter the stalingrad fun.

	28-10-2001 06:58									#6
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IMO, having not played the game, this makes city walls worthless. Better off spending the shields on defensive units than building walls that are pointless at size 7.

	28-10-2001 07:12									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Stretch IMO, having not played the game, this makes city walls worthless. Better off spending the shields on defensive units than building walls that are pointless at size 7.

Well, if there cheap and cost nothing to keep and are gotton fairly early on, then I would still use em...

	28-10-2001 07:17									#8
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Maybe I'm reading it the wrong way, but to me that sounds like combat in cities is going to result in unavoidable population losses once the city gets too big for a wall. A very good thing in my opinion, and it would fit with Dan's description of shelling advanced cities into smoking ruins rather than capture them intact.

	28-10-2001 07:24									#9
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seems like a cheezy way of getting around outdating city walls.

it promotes growth to some degree i suppose, but do you get money for the walls when you hit 7?

	28-10-2001 07:46									#10
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sounds cool to me.

	28-10-2001 07:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX seems like a cheezy way of getting around outdating city walls. it promotes growth to some degree i suppose, but do you get money for the walls when you hit 7?

What would be really neat (probably way too late, but we just found this out!) is if when your citizens start to outgrow their walls, they tear them down for building material, so instead of cash, you'd get a one-time production boost. Maybe 1/4-1/2 of the resources you put in.

And for whoever (sorry, I tend to miss names) thought walls were useless in general, keep in mind you won't get to size 7 without aqueducts, so for some period, walls will certainly be useful. And no matter what, if you're on the end of an empire, and the guy across the border isn't 100% reliable, you want those walls.

	28-10-2001 08:35									#12
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What would be kind of neat is if after your city increased in size past say size 7 and 12 you would have to renew your city walls or they would only protect at like 1/4 of their orginal power

BTW - why would city walls be useless. with a size 12 city with city walls you get 150% increased defense, a hell of a lot better than just 50%. I mean with that a pikeman (3*2.5 = defense of 7, 1 more, which can make a big difference.), and by the time you would most likely have the large city, although i don't know the true defense value, but i would guess a mech infantry would have at least a 15 defense value. That would be 15*2.5 = a defense value of 37.5, better than just 30 considering the modern tank has a attack around 32. Okay now i'm ranting so i'm going to stop

	28-10-2001 08:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Mars What would be kind of neat is if after your city increased in size past say size 7 and 12 you would have to renew your city walls or they would only protect at like 1/4 of their orginal power BTW - why would city walls be useless. with a size 12 city with city walls you get 150% increased defense, a hell of a lot better than just 50%. I mean with that a pikeman (3*2.5 = defense of 7, 1 more, which can make a big difference.), and by the time you would most likely have the large city, although i don't know the true defense value, but i would guess a mech infantry would have at least a 15 defense value. That would be 15*2.5 = a defense value of 37.5, better than just 30 considering the modern tank has a attack around 32. Okay now i'm ranting so i'm going to stop

I think it basically represents that you can't really wall in a modern city. I mean, size 7 is what, 300,000 people or so? You just don't wall that kinda space in.

Someone mentioned walls in Quebec City in some other thread people discussed this, but then, if I recall right, from when I was there back in 89, the walls only enclose the 'inner city'. Most of the city, in modern fashion has grown quite outside them, and would be useless for defense.

	28-10-2001 09:01									#14
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The walls in Quebec would be useless for defense of the inner city as well now a days. tanks could smash right through the gates. but that doesn't matter its just a gameplay thing, IMO. but maybe you're right perhaps walls should just go obselate after the discover of gunpowder or something. Only fortresses are still effective after that period, not walled cities

	28-10-2001 10:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia It makes sense. Protecting in numbers

Yes, this make me remember the city defense force in SMAC, but here the numbers make the diference.
Very good!

	28-10-2001 10:25									#16
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That's silly. Many large Chinese cities had walls, and they had a bit more than 300,000 people.

	28-10-2001 13:53									#17
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DOES anybody remember a City View screen wich teared doen City Walls?
I think that walls stay in the city but don't give def. bonus (maybe a culture after becoming obsolete)

	28-10-2001 14:36									#18
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quote: City walls only provide a defense bonus of 50%, and disappear once your city reaches size 7. Size 7-12 cities have an inherent defense bonus of 50%, and cities larger than 12 have an inherent bonus of 100%.

I think I like this.

Civ-2 style citywalls, with its tripled defence-bonus, was a little too powerful for its own good. A peaceful player could often get away easily with only 2-3 potent combat-units per city. Now, thanks to the reduced defensive citywall-bonus, one is forced to watch ones back, more then before it seems.

	28-10-2001 20:22									#19
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...you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall.

I always thought city walls were a little silly in modern cities. Instead of disappearring after a certain population limit per city, they should disappear after you enter the modern age.

	28-10-2001 20:34									#20
	Great Wall? Increase the size of your Attachments

I remebered hearing that Firaxis scrapped the idea that the Great Wall among a few others would be placed on the world map... Did they just go back to the original bonus it gave in civ2? That it gave city walls to every city...? If so, don't you get the Great Wall when you get the aqueduct? So that would make the Great Wall a REALLY worthless wonder, since you'd probably just opt for making the aqueduct, as you need them eventually anyway?
Any thoughts?

	28-10-2001 21:31									#21
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I still don't understand the rationale behind having city walls becoming obsolete when a city reaches population of 7. Can't they just push the damn walls outwards?

	28-10-2001 21:40									#22
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I don't like this at all. Sure , cities providing inherent bonuses after size 7 is a good idea, but city walls should not become useless. Maybe, they could provide +1 defensive point to all units in the city instead after reaching size 7. This would solve the problem with modern units as against them such a bonus would be insignificant.

	28-10-2001 22:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's silly. Many large Chinese cities had walls, and they had a bit more than 300,000 people.

Civ cities of size 6 are considered to having 210,000 people:
Lyons city-screen

Civ cities of size 7 are considered to have 305,000 people:
Eisenstein city-screen

At some point it's easier to defend house to house then to man each portion of an increasinly expanded city wall. The size6/7 cutoff seems pretty good to me and is pretty darn close to your own historical facts

	28-10-2001 22:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I still don't understand the rationale behind having city walls becoming obsolete when a city reaches population of 7. Can't they just push the damn walls outwards?

But then how many troops are required to man those walls effectively? With a finite number of troops and a dramatically expanding perimeter, it's easier to fight house to house using main avenues that armies would be forced to take then to use city walls.